xf_book_club | Story 187: "Relic of Tough Weather" by Jesemie's Evil Twin

Heeee you totally posted JETfic just to see if I was paying attention! I know your tricks!

Why hello, A. Fancy seeing you here!

You know what I love about this fic (besides everything)? I love that it's S7 fic that is also S4 fic, and covertly it's Dod Kalm fic, as an extra little tricky suprise snuck in.

Also, wow, this is one of my favorite of all the Mulders. In fact, as much as I love the Mulder of "Small Lives Awake," I love this Mulder just as much. He's basically the most compassionate - and yet not mushy - Mulder ever. This is one of the few fics (...wait...could it be the only XF fic?) that makes me cry for characters I don't know at all and have no prior (or future) investment in. Mulder's neighbors, I mean. And I feel for them because JET's Mulder feels for them. Not in that annoying, "my pain, let me show you it" way. But it comes through in the writing so viscerally (for me). Because he knows what it's like to swallowed up by that kind of yawning hopelessness. He remembers, from the dark days of S4.

Which then makes the tentative new character growth of early S7 all the more wonderful.

This is just to say that I will respond to this soon, particularly now that I've read the story twice and am probably going to go read it again right now --

I like this story—okay.

As you so eloquently put it, the style is distinctively hers, with "evocative prose and compassionate characterizations" as two of the elements.

It does have a beginning, a middle and an end, although I had to print it out for careful scrutiny to be certain.

To recap, Mulder has a dream triggered by a newscast, a dream laced with memories of them on the ship in the north Atlantic, both of them inexplicably dying of old age. Scully's dad makes an appearance. Then Mulder has another memory triggered by finding out that a neighbor is dying of cancer; the memory is of Scully's last hospitalization for cancer. She is dying. She tell him she's grateful he is there with her. He decides he has to go tell her he's grateful, too.

I just don't know. I mean, one minute he's baking a pie and telling himself he's not missing Scully (um, right); the next minute he's taking the pie over to her house and he's hugging her, there's kissing and then the fade to black.

The "spoilers" indicate this takes place in season seven, but other than an oblique reference to "rapid-fire images," there isn't much to connect it to the episodes it supposedly contains spoilers to. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand what she's getting at here. There must be a kind of emotional logic to this story, with the dream and the memories and the pumpkin pie and the cancer arc and Mulder's own latest brush with death, but I don't understand why this year of all years Mulder would decide to bake a pie and why he'd decide to take it to her and well, why any of it really.

Like all of JET's stories, it's beautifully written, full of imagery and subtle emotion, but in the end, it just doesn't add up. I don't find myself getting pulled into the drama or convinced that they're really doing it. Any of it. Maybe this story would have more meaning for me if I shipped them? I admit I was pleased that the inevitable sex was suggested rather than described in detail.

I want to believe. I swear I do. But I think there's something missing here. Plus, Mulder's sister disappeared in November, so it seems odd that there's no mention of Samantha. And what about his family? He thinks about Scully's family and their Thanksgiving celebration. He has a dream where her dad appears. Well, Mulder had a father, too. He still has a mother. No thoughts of her, either, on a holiday this family-centered?

I'll try reading it again.

I'm wondering if we're meant to imply something from or just to think about Mulder's own relationship with his father. There's a ton of father-discussion and father-imagery in this short story, including troubled father-child relationships. It definitely makes me think about Mulder and his father, although I'm not sure if it leaves me with any insights.

Maybe we are. From what I see on the page, I can't tell what her intentions were except to get to the happy ending.

JET filtered out a lot of the genuinely troubling stuff about Mulder's own life, PAST AND PRESENT, perhaps because that stuff is so hard to write about, or maybe because it's just such old news by this point in the fandom? Instead, she creates some neighbors to stir up some empathy, in him and by proxy, in the reader.

People do have neighbors. People do get terminal cancer. Of course, usually they don't make it, since most of the people who are dying don't get a tailor-made miracle cure microchip from the DOD to turn it off (wtf, show).

If anyone was primed for feeling something for these people, you'd think it would be me; instead, I just feel like I'm being manipulated, and end up irritated at the writer.

I'm not fond of the cancer arc either but it's canon so we are stuck with it.

This isn't JET's fault, but I can't help reading this story from where I stand with canon. I know in a few months' time, while on a case, Mulder is going to get a phone call from his mother and shortly thereafter, she's going to commit suicide. She's dying of cancer and he's so disconnected at this point from his own family that he doesn't even know she's sick, let alone dying. And I'm supposed to believe that a dream and a glimpse of a dying man enjoying his last Thanksgiving dinner with his family is enough to propel Mulder to Scully's side and then into her bed?

Who are these people and what show are they on again?

To me, this is clearly nothing but a shipper fantasy. That's fine. This is fanfiction, after all, and this was written for one of those Scullyfic challenges, and it seems to be making most of the readership here happy and hey, we're supposed to be having fun here. But it doesn't work for me. I don't think it would have worked for me back then either.

I would probably like this story better if she'd started from scratch and written new characters, instead of making this about M&S. Maybe if she'd written more about the neighbors, because from where I am sitting, she is using this painful scene to justify the shippy ending and that makes me feel sick and kind of shitty, not all warm and fuzzy inside.

For Thanksgiving fic by JET, I'd much rather reread "Small Lives Awake." So I think I will.

I just don't know. I mean, one minute he's baking a pie and telling himself he's not missing Scully (um, right)

But I think the "um, right" is what we're supposed to think. We're not meant to believe him.

There must be a kind of emotional logic to this story, with the dream and the memories and the pumpkin pie and the cancer arc and Mulder's own latest brush with death, but I don't understand why this year of all years Mulder would decide to bake a pie and why he'd decide to take it to her and well, why any of it really.

I addressed some of this in my comments below, but I feel like I've been kind of antisocial by just posting my own comments and not replying to anybody else's so:

Why this year of all the years? Because this is S7. He spent the summer out of his mind, was crucified, tempted, denied temptation and was resurrected (thanks largely to Scully). He made some peace with his inner child, made sandcastles on the beach with a boy I've always felt was meant to represent him (perhaps with some Samantha throw into the mix), and he and Scully all but revelied they were the love of each other's lives.

ROTW was written immediately after all of this happened. In that light, why not S7?

I don't find myself getting pulled into the drama or convinced that they're really doing it. Any of it.

Maybe because, as monumental as this shift in their relationship is, what we see in ROTW is only the very last bits of fear and reservation melting away. Most of the shift has already taken place. They're not going from platonic to intimate. As Mulder's memories demonstrate, they've been intimate for years, and as of late, they basically know it. Now they must acknowledge it.

Plus, Mulder's sister disappeared in November, so it seems odd that there's no mention of Samantha. And what about his family? He thinks about Scully's family and their Thanksgiving celebration. He has a dream where her dad appears. Well, Mulder had a father, too. He still has a mother. No thoughts of her, either, on a holiday this family-centered?

What's to say he has to think of his wretched family on Thanksgiving? They failed him so unforgivably as a child. I think his lonliness is pretty strongly implied, but that doesn't mean his blood relations would be any kind of an answer for him. Scully is his family, and by proxy her family is some comfort to him as well, even if he is not comfortable going amongst them himself.

I'm sure there have been many Thanksgiving when his family has been foremost in his mind - maybe every Thanksgiving up until this one. I'm proud of this Mulder, and happy for him, because this year he is thinking of Scully instead.

Because he knows what it's like to swallowed up by that kind of yawning hopelessness. He remembers, from the dark days of S4.

I suppose you could also assert he remembers from when she was abducted in season two, and was missing for three months, only to reappear in a coma. But I don't agree. Mulder never gave up looking for her when she was gone. He never gave up searching for a cure. He doesn't give up searching for Samantha until presented with evidence of her death. He wasn't swallowed up by hopelessness. He felt fear and grief, certainly, but not hopelessness, not the kind that leads to resignation and defeat, to the acceptance of the inevitable.

Why this year of all the years? Because this is S7. He spent the summer out of his mind, was crucified, tempted, denied temptation and was resurrected (thanks largely to Scully). He made some peace with his inner child, made sandcastles on the beach with a boy I've always felt was meant to represent him (perhaps with some Samantha throw into the mix), and he and Scully all but revelied they were the love of each other's lives.

This is one of those we really aren't watching the same show moments, isn't it? Noromos get lonely out here in ShipperLand. Sob.

Seriously, I always need a more convincing storyline for their Relationship than this story provides. It's season seven doesn't cut it for me.

I can believe he'd be thinking of Scully. He's always thinking of Scully. But not thinking of Samantha during this month of all months? This week of all weeks? That doesn't sound like Mulder to me.

Having a miserable family life doesn't always make it easier to stop thinking about your family of origin during the holidays. Quite the contrary. Maybe Mulder has made peace with that piece of unfinished business by the end of season seven, but I rather doubt it. If he had, would he have gone running off to Oregon again?

Maybe because, as monumental as this shift in their relationship is, what we see in ROTW is only the very last bits of fear and reservation melting away. Most of the shift has already taken place. They're not going from platonic to intimate. As Mulder's memories demonstrate, they've been intimate for years, and as of late, they basically know it. Now they must acknowledge it.

Okay. Just because they love one another doesn't mean they want or need to be in a physical relationship. Maybe they are just fine with the way things are. Or maybe they are saving the consummation until after they've saved the world from the alien menace. Maybe they see sex and romance as An Unnecessary Distraction from Their True Destiny as Saviors of the Planet.

Just because they love one another doesn't mean they want or need to be in a physical relationship.

That's not what I said at all. What they need is to be open to each other, to trust each other, to give thanks for each other, to let the relationship be what it is. The fic says that quite plainly:

He still does not know the words, but he knows they must nonetheless be said.

I understand what you infer the author intends us to feel when we read this, but it still doesn't work for me.

That's not what I said at all. What they need is to be open to each other, to trust each other, to give thanks for each other, to let the relationship be what it is. The fic says that quite plainly...

Perhaps it's plain to you but, honestly, it's still not plain to me. I'm still sitting here unconvinced by JET's words that they need to do any of that, or even that they could or would at this juncture in the series.

The dreams and the neighbor with cancer and the pie and rest of it, it doesn't get me there. I know this was written right after Amor Fati et al. The connection between that and these other elements seems tenuous at best, and despite your intelligent analysis and cogent arguments to the contrary, doesn't lead me to the story's foregone conclusion.

I guess we'd better agree to disagree?

I love this -- to me, it's kind of a ghost season, a could-have-been. It's late, and I'll add more tomorrow -- I'm just glad you posted this one as I thought I had read all of JET's stuff, and I hadn't run into this one before.

I love this short little fic. I always cringe when I hear holiday fic (I'll have to check out Small Lives Awake now) because I haven't run into any that really works until this fic. I did have to read it twice to follow the shift from dream to memory to past to present because she jumps so immediately between them without much warning, but I loved it.

Loved this exchange between Mulder and Scully:

"You didn't actually bake a pie, did you, Mulder?"

"Absolutely."

"You made it from scratch?"

"That wasn't your question. But I baked it myself, yeah."

She sits up. "Does that mean you turned on the oven all by yourself?"

"I also opened the box. It was exhausting."

And I also suddenly care about random neighbors we never met before. This passage was just sad and lovely:

"Thank you, I'll keep you in mind. Say hello to Mariam."

"We're so glad she's here," Mrs. Pater repeats, her eyes rainy green. "She
has always adored her father, just adored him." Mulder stops shuffling
backwards. Mrs. Pater pulls the door almost closed behind her. She bends
down to pet Scruffy. "When Mariam was an infant, she knew I was the dinner
wagon, but oh. She followed Leonard; she'd perk right up when he was in the room, track him, even as a newborn. She loved him right from day one."
Mrs. Pater laughs cautiously, sorrowfully. Mulder wonders what it costs her - what it has cost her - to say these things, to witness and survive their small realities.

"If you need anything, Mrs. Pater," he begins. She looks at him with her
pleading eyes and her proud chin. In the apartment, someone is scraping a
plate. In the apartment, someone is saying goodbye. "Well. If you need
anything, please let me know."

She smiles, pushes the door open. "Sure will," Mrs. Pater says. "Sure
will."

This fic is just lovely.

I think this story is a good example of creating characters that the audience cares about in a small amount of words. I found the introduced characters involving and touching, too.

I like the way JET writes, although I usually need a few readthroughs to follow everything. The language in this story is beautiful, poetic but never weighed down. I did find I needed time and space to read it and concentrate on it.

I really liked the repeated themes of reflection and giving thanks. And these lines:

Mrs. Pater laughs cautiously, sorrowfully. Mulder wonders what it costs her - what it has cost her - to say these things, to witness and survive their small realities.

What it costs to witness and survive reality is such an XF theme, I think.

"Pater" means father, doesn't it? There's a theme here about fatherhood, as well--Mulder seeing Scully's father; Mariam's relationship with her father (which we only hear about secondhand: we never meet either character). There's also the obvious theme of the ships and water, and Scully being the one who draws the harbor, who's a child of the sea, making sense of it all.

Okay, I don't really care for fic that makes me feel dumb, and this is one of them.

I think I spent the first paragraphs going: UH??? I went back, reread again; I did this at least twice.

Mulder watches telly about a ship that sank. No idea what this is about. Meanwhile Scully is writing or drawing about something cryptic. The letter maybe addressed to her father, but then she gives it to Mulder, after pressing her fingers to his temples which is a weird move and she's drawn a harbor. WTF? Is Mulder dreaming?

Then I guess we're back inside the telly, but then Mulder must be in it too because he helps the captain when he stumbles. Except that Mulder is now in a hospital bed.

Then Mulder wraps someone in his jacket and there's something about galaxies, at which point I threw my hands up in the air and skimmed the rest.

There's a small part with Mulder's neighbour that makes a little more sense and then Mulder brings a pie to Scully which is a thinly veiled ploy to snog her and then he asks her about her father because that's what you do when you're kissing the Love of Your Life.

Oh, yeah, I gather this was something about Thanksgiving.

*sigh* Yes, beautiful imagery, beautiful words, poetic and everything. But guys, when I want poetry I read poetry. When I'm reading fic, I expect a story, where you know, stuff that makes a minimum amount of sense happens, where a narrative thread flows and tells me a tale with a beginning a middle and an end. And basically Mulder bringing Scully a pie for Thanksgiving is a thin plot. I know, I know, these kinds of stories are never about the plot. They are by essence PWP.

"Evocative prose and compassionate characterizations" do nothing for me on their own, except make me yawn.

I've just read people comments now, which I hadn't done before because I wanted to write down my own opinion first.

To recap, Mulder has a dream triggered by a newscast, a dream laced with memories of them on the ship in the north Atlantic, both of them inexplicably dying of old age. Scully's dad makes an appearance. Then Mulder has another memory triggered by finding out that a neighbor is dying of cancer; the memory is of Scully's last hospitalization for cancer. She is dying. She tell him she's grateful he is there with her. He decides he has to go tell her he's grateful, too.

See this? Right here! I should not need Wendy to understand a little bit better what this story was about. I never saw the link with Dod Kalm for one, or Scully's last hospitalization.

Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand what she's getting at here.

My thoughts exactly.

but in the end, it just doesn't add up. I don't find myself getting pulled into the drama or convinced that they're really doing it.

Yeah, me neither, there's no narrative consistency or clearly defined path to pull you in, it's all too disjointed and cryptic. I guess this is what JET was aiming for, and some of you obviously love this kind of stuff.

I wish I could find the quote from Estella - I think - who said that in order to be a good writer you need to make sure you succeed at conveying what it is you want to convey to your readers. Night Giving off Flames succeeded beautifully. This one is a total fail for me, I feel like I'm the dumb one who didn't get it and I really don't have time for this kind of elitistic writing.

Erm...maybe not the best time of the month for me to participate in this book club. *g*

Edited 2011-11-22 09:55 (UTC)

Erm...maybe not the best time of the month for me to participate in this book club. *g*

No, Fish, I don't think that's it. And you're certainly not dumb and neither am I. This story has some problems, the lack of coherency and flow is one. I don't know for certain if that's what she's aiming at, but I do know it's not working for me. I don't mind digging deep to understand a text. To give one example, I like Henry James very much and certainly no one who's familiar with his work would accuse him of having an easy style, quite the contrary. But what we end up with here isn't worth the effort.

If you haven't already, try JET's "Small Lives Awake." It's right up there with "Night Giving Off Flame," at least in my book. There's a link to the 2009 discussion in

amyhit's big organizational post, and from it a link to the story.

But what we end up with here isn't worth the effort.

I agree.

Thanks, I will check out "Small Lives Awake."

So I responsibly read this twice, plus I'd read it before, but it is a fic that's hard to get your brain around and therefore remember. I agree that a flair for fine language is on display; no one would argue that JET has major talent. But I believe that her penchant for fancy imagery and deliberate mystification got away from her here.

I like mystery, but not mystification. Which is a lot like obfuscation.

What happens here is very simple. It is a PWP. But there are a bunch of dreams with no transitions provided. I really can't understand, also, why bachelor Mulder would think it appropriate to provide overfamilied Scully with a storebought pie. It's symbolism at the expense of common sense. How about a nice "Thank you, you've been great." And surely literary Mulder would not be so tin-eared as to think that "Baby, wanna wrestle?" is a serviceable come-on.

What bothers me most is the adjectivitus. My husband thinks that adverbs should be illegal (ha, ha) and I don't, but the modifiers have to be tamed and leashed. "Glassine teardrops." "Crumbling shell," "roseate shades of dusk," "unspeakable code," "unimaginable warmth," "burst of crimson pain," "irresistable," "innocuous." It amounts to an overselling of mood when a clarification of action would be more appreciated. I also thought piling winter imagery on top of ocean imagery was too heavy a hint. Death approaches; we get it. (It doesn't help that my hands are really cold right now.)

The irony is that JET is very good on dialogue--I liked Mrs. Pater's term "food wagon"--and is wonderfully sensitive in her scenes of character interaction. More dialogue; few adjectives.

That's a nice quote that I don't remember making, Fish. I'll claim it if no one else wants it.

IN CONCLUSION: I remember really liking JET's "An Influence of Stars." Maybe it would weaken upon rereading, what doesn't, but it has a nice (hint) Christmassy feel.

But I believe that her penchant for fancy imagery and deliberate mystification got away from her here.

Yep.

But there are a bunch of dreams with no transitions provided.

And no clear connection to the rest of the story or even to the episodes this is supposedly related to. I think she's trying to use the dreams as a substitute for the endless internal monologue of mediocre fan writing. I appreciate the attempt and applaud the idea, but it didn't work.

I really can't understand, also, why bachelor Mulder would think it appropriate to provide overfamilied Scully with a storebought pie. It's symbolism at the expense of common sense.

I don't understand why he'd even have a pie in his freezer. The dialogue about the pie is cute. Her dialogue is usually excellent. Her Mulder and Scully sound like M&S.

What bothers me most is the adjectivitus.

First, I need to say I love the word "adjectivitus." But I think if the plot made sense and story flowed better, the descriptors wouldn't seem so excessive. I know they aren't helping matters any but I don't think they're the main problem here.

IN CONCLUSION: I remember really liking JET's "An Influence of Stars." Maybe it would weaken upon rereading, what doesn't, but it has a nice (hint) Christmassy feel.

Maybe you could add that to the queue?

Yepper! You know I always do what you tell me.

It amounts to an overselling of mood when a clarification of action would be more appreciated.

THIS.

That's a nice quote that I don't remember making, Fish. I'll claim it if no one else wants it.

Ooops, sorry darling, after racking my brain I finally remembered that this notion came from Bellefleur on Haven in a thread about the need for beta readers. This is the actual quote which is quite different from what I remembered:

"In the end, writing is a communal activity. At its heart, it's about communication, and while the idea may belong to you, the words don't. If the words you choose don't effectively communicate your idea to someone else, then the words need to change. And the best way to know you're not communicating clearly is to have someone else read it.

Eh, I guess I thought this was the kind of wisdom that could come from you. *g*

Well, I'm flattered. I think. Yes, yes, I'm flattered. (It doesn't take much.)

I knew it was a risk posting this fic, given the style of its prose, but A. I've only read two Thanksgiving fics that I can think of, and we'd already read the other one, and B. I love it. I'm glad to see that at least a couple of people who'd never read this fic found it enjoyable and beautiful. Needless to say, I'm entirely in that camp myself.

I think JET's writing is particularly difficult to discuss, if you like it. For me, trying to explain why I love it - what it means to me, what it speaks to in me - is difficult. Her writing is like a charm, an invocation. The writing is complicated, but the final product is simple enough, in the way things seem simple when one goes from being deeply afraid to no longer being so very afraid.

Which could be considered a synopsis for most of JET's stories: Mulder and Scully go from being deeply, painfully afraid of something (losing each other, losing themselves, etc.) to braving their fears with all the strength of their best qualities.

In ROTW, Mulder overcomes whatever remaining threads of cautious fear are causing him to stay away from Scully on Thanksgiving. He tries to tell himself he wants to be alone, and there does seem to be a spare kind of enjoyment in it for him:

However, he likes the tarnished temperature, the brash sleet that has begun to patter like metal shavings against the windowsill. These pewter clouds seem custom-made for him.

He will go outside for a minute and let the ice slivers liquefy in his palms, let the sweet chill seep and quiet his mind.

He tries to tell himself: He does not miss Scully today. Not even a little.

My reading of this is that he's managing his desires, trimming them back before they can overwhelm him. It's a day for giving thanks for all the good in one's life, so of course Mulder misses Scully. She's the very best thing in his life. She is what he's thankful for, and who he's thankful to.

To go to her on Thanksgiving day would be to acknowledge that - to accept it as the blessing it is, a blessing that carries with it an almost infinite potential for pain. After all, he could loose her, she could vanish again, or die:

He feels he could sit at her bedside for the rest of nights, forever, as long as it takes until sleep slides into his mind like a knife, a burst of crimson pain and then a blessed black depth, a lightless glacier.

In the outwardly uneventful but internally fraught course of ROTW's narrative, Mulder goes from baking a rather pitiful pie and trying to savour his loneliness, to being intimate with his dearest family.

He still does not know the words, but he knows they must nonetheless be said.

I think JET's writing is particularly difficult to discuss, if you like it. For me, trying to explain why I love it - what it means to me, what it speaks to in me - is difficult. Her writing is like a charm, an invocation.

I understand that. I think

dashakay's "Blinded By White Light" is like that for me. There's a scene that resonates for me on a deep level because of who I am, because of my personal experiences.

Since I don't think I can separate out my feelings about this story from the story of my own life, I won't even try.

The truth is I identify in a perhaps not entirely healthy way with the premise of this story. While I don't objectively think that there is just one person we are meant to be with, and if we miss that opportunity we will never achieve true happiness, I do know what it is like to feel as though you have found that person. I also know firsthand what it is like to fear losing them to a horrible, meaningless death. When I reread the scene in the woods, where Mulder and Scully are both dying from the plague and know that the end is close, I just break into tears. I can't help it. I don't know if the writing is good or bad, I just know that it affects me on a deep level that not many stories have. Sorry to get so emotional here.

Mulder's voice is low and pleading as he wraps his arm
around her. "Not tonight, Scully. It's not time. Let's
just keep each other warm. Please, for me, one more night..."

Slowly, she puts the gun down and she hears him let out his
breath in relief.

He pulls her closer to him and his breath ruffles her hair.
"I just want to see one more morning with you."

For me that is the emotional climax of the story. Because the only way they could end up together meant hurting their families, I think I felt ambivalent about the ending. Still, I don't think DashaK could have ended this fic any other way and still satisfied the readers.

Anyway, back to "Relic." I want to be clear on this. I don't think the main problem with this fic is her style, although it's not helping matters any. The problem for me is the plot. When she has all of the elements of good story-telling working together, the results are magnificent. I think "Night Giving Off Flames" is one of the best stories in this or in any fandom. It's powerful, it's unforgettable. I love "Things That Lie Outside" and "Small Lives Awake" nearly as much.

Yeah, but the way she writes plot is a big part of her style. I'm actually not wild about NGOF. It's good, but I probably connect with it the least out of any of her fics, including the vignettes. I do love SLA and TTLO, though.

Why a risk? If you only posted stuff we all agree on, it would make for a very boring book club.

Easy for you to say. It's not one of your favorite stories being so easily dismissed.

It's okay, it's all part of being a mod. All I can do is hope that people comment, one way or the other, and be happy when they do - which I am.

But this fic is dear to me, and I'm not going to pretend it's fun to hear it criticized for several pages.

Easy for you to say. It's not one of your favorite stories being so easily dismissed.

But Fish has had stories of her own discussed here and critiqued, which is surely a comparable experience? And she also shared her difficulties with understanding the story, as did I.

It's not easy to say to a group, hey, I didn't understand this. Is it me or is it the story? Can you help me out here?

It's okay, it's all part of being a mod. All I can do is hope that people comment, one way or the other, and be happy when they do - which I am.

I'm glad you are okay with it. Posting our opinions out in the open anywhere is a risk; I can't disagree with you. Regarding my opinions on fandom and fic, I've been flamed for mine in my personal journal and trolled and de-friended, too.

Anyone who puts a story in the queue is taking a risk, though maybe not quite so publicly as we do who post and comment.

But this fic is dear to me, and I'm not going to pretend it's fun to hear it criticized for several pages.

I see that. I'm sorry this has been such a negative experience for you. Thank you for sharing this rec with us despite your reservations about doing so.

We all bring our unique pov and experiences to the table here. I hope you know how much I appreciate your contributions and look forward to reading them; even if I disagree with your reviews, I always learn something new about the stories from reading them.

But Fish has had stories of her own discussed here and critiqued, which is surely a comparable experience?

I think having your own fic discussed is another thing entirely, a whole other kind of painful(when the fic gets criticism) and rewarding (when it gets praise).

It's not easy to say to a group, hey, I didn't understand this.

But this week you have two vocal participants agreeing with you. And you seem to be saying, "I didn't get it because it's not there to get." That's different. It's like - I think "Blinded By White Light" is trite and kind of schmaltzy. For you, its value is right there. Well, for me, ROTW's value is right there. I don't have to squint, I don't have to labour, it's just a really beautiful, moving fic.

I see that. I'm sorry this has been such a negative experience for you.

It hasn't really. I mean, two people who'd never read the fic before read it and loved it. That's wonderful, and has made me really happy.

Not to mention that articulating and writing down what this fic means to me has solidified it's place in my head, and made me love it all the more - which is a really rewarding thing when it happens, as perhaps you know.

I'm just tired, and this is the fourth week I've been arguing against the vocal majority. I'm plenty ready for a week of agreeing with people.

This week I did have two vocal people agreeing with me, but there's never a guarantee about it. E.C. disagrees with me at least as often as you do. So does Fish.

And you seem to be saying, "I didn't get it because it's not there to get." That's different. It's like - I think "Blinded By White Light" is trite and kind of schmaltzy. For you, its value is right there. Well, for me, ROTW's value is right there. I don't have to squint, I don't have to labour, it's just a really beautiful, moving fic.

Yes. Well, I do think ROTW's particular weaknesses keep it from being a completely successful story--for me. I can see why it would work better for other readers, who bring something different to the story. Ultimately, nothing works for everyone. Fish dissed "This House is Burning." She didn't like her characterizations or even her writing! Tesla is a very smooth stylist, one of the best we have, so I don't even know. You know? Zellie on the other hand loved it, which, yeah, made me very happy. Carol loved it the first time around, had some major issues with it the second. EC and I loved it pretty much unreservedly—although she didn't like the ending as much as I did.

It hasn't really. I mean, two people who'd never read the fic before read it and loved it. That's wonderful, and has made me really happy.

Not to mention that articulating and writing down what this fic means to me has solidified it's place in my head, and made me love it all the more - which is a really rewarding thing when it happens, as perhaps you know.

Yes, I totally do. I look back sometimes when I need a lift at the things I've written about stories I like. A good, well-reasoned bit of analysis usually cheers me up, even if no one agreed with me. *g*

I'm just tired, and this is the fourth week I've been arguing against the vocal majority. I'm plenty ready for a week of agreeing with people. No guarantees there, I'm afraid, but I'll do my best.

I need to go look at the queue...

No guarantees there, I'm afraid, but I'll do my best.

Whatever you decide will be fine. If I get too tired of being the voice of dissent, I'll just comment less for a week. That is always an option.

Fish dissed "This House is Burning."

Yeah, we all have our unpopular opinions. I think THIB is very good, and I enjoyed it a lot, though I do agree with Fish that the Scully characterization was fairly weak.

Fish dissed "This House is Burning." She didn't like her characterizations or even her writing! Tesla is a very smooth stylist, one of the best we have, so I don't even know. You know?

OY! Quoting myself here: "I won't deny that the style is fluid and the story rather well written,"

I had issues with the characterisations and thought the descriptions of their feelings for each other lacked subtelty and I stand by that. But there's nothing wrong with Tesla's writing. She writes well, just not in a way that appeals to me.

I'm plenty ready for a week of agreeing with people. No guarantees there, I'm afraid, but I'll do my best.

I need to go look at the queue...

Or, you know, we could review "The Sound of Windchimes". I'm sure we could all agree on that one. Nekkid Mulder and Scully in space rape fantasy with mysteriously materializing hamburgers. What's not to love? *sniggers*

Just kidding.

Hey Babe, be of good cheer, we've all been up against it at times. I have a peculiar fondness for Jess's Bombardier Boy, and *no one hardly even posted.* It's wacky, and wacky is hard to defend to those who aren't vulnerable to it. But I love laughing, and I think that gives me an instinctual understanding of what creates comedy. Theory, however, doesn't get the giggles.

It's funny how it's possible to bond with a fic to the extent that any criticism of it scars your very soul! That's how I am with THIB.

Geez, I'm afraid to *mention* Jess's Hog Heaven. And yet I consider it sublime.

I have a peculiar fondness for Jess's Bombardier Boy, and *no one hardly even posted.*

Couldn't we have some sort of catch up sessions? Like sometimes when the discussion on the current story is wrapped up quickly, we could have a tiny note in a corner refering to one of the fic that got few comments in the past, so people could go back there and catch up or add new things? I know I missed discussions I would have loved to participate to because I was away at the time or otherwise engaged.

Just an idea in passing.

Edited 2011-11-29 18:43 (UTC)

What a nice idea. I defer to the power of the mods to make it so (channeling Capt. Picard).

I was just rereading the stuff on "Other Night" and I found myself posting. And I'm thinking, "What are you, nuts?"

Of course, there's always the grim possibility of Nobody Posted, Part Two.

It's wacky, and wacky is hard to defend to those who aren't vulnerable to it.

Yeah, I get that. Poetic is hard to defend as well. It's so often one of those "you either see it or you don't" situations.

It's funny how it's possible to bond with a fic to the extent that any criticism of it scars your very soul! That's how I am with THIB.

Haha, yes. It's a physical distress, like people are saying bad things about the person you're in love with.

But Fish has had stories of her own discussed here and critiqued, which is surely a comparable experience?

I think having your own fic discussed is another thing entirely, a whole other kind of painful

*laugh* you got that right. This said I welcomed the critiques on my fics, even the negative ones because they made me think. My only beef was with HC, when the discussion seemed to focus mostly on that one controversial scene and that was a bit frustrating. But other than that, bring it on, I say.

I guess seeing Madeleine Partous "The Pact" which used to be one of my favourite stories back in the days - ripped to shreds was in a way more painful, so I know where Amyhit is coming from. But then the comments made a whole lot of sense. It is a deeply flawed story with OTT characterization and a rubbish plot. But the M&S interaction still cracks me up. It's like Missy Pennington's The Tempest. Boy, it hasn't aged well, but I have an irrational fondness for it.

I think Blinded By White Light is schmaltzy trite too. And way overrated. :)

I'm just tired, and this is the fourth week I've been arguing against the vocal majority. I'm plenty ready for a week of agreeing with people.

Vocal yes, majority no. To my count it's a 4 to 3 against. Or a tie since Lighlack didn't say what she thought but reading her post I assume she's a JET fan.

Edited 2011-11-29 18:33 (UTC)

Easy for you to say. It's not one of your favorite stories being so easily dismissed.

I'm sorry darling I thought the only person I might offend here was the writer. It didn't cross my mind that you liked this story so much, criticizing it would affect you.

But I'm blunt in my opinions, alays have been. "Merciless, brutal criticism involving burning smartassery" Aloysia used to call it. And years of being on Haven where you couldn't voice a single criticism makes me enjoy the freedom of speech I have in this book club like you wouldn't believe. So I guess I just took the ball and ran with it on that one.

It didn't cross my mind that you liked this story so much, criticizing it would affect you.

People's opinions on things always affect me. That's why I'm here, that's why I like this place so much. There's no need to apologise, Fish. Like I said, what's important about this community is that people get involved, and post their opinions as honestly as they can. But yes, I love this story.

Vocal yes, majority no. To my count it's a 4 to 3 against.

Yeah, I noticed that too, but my saying so would've been kind of a tacky way of validating my argument, I think.

Or a tie since Lighlack didn't say what she thought but reading her post I assume she's a JET fan.

She's a HUGE JET fan. ROTW is not her favorite of JET's stories, but she's definitely in the "like" camp on this one. (She and I have talked about this in RL, which is why I'm comfortable speaking for her in this case.)

I knew it was a risk posting this fic, given the style of its prose,

Why a risk? If you only posted stuff we all agree on, it would make for a very boring book club.

I find it interesting to read about people's experience of a story when they differ so much from my own.

I agree you, Fish. For discussion, the more opinions a story generates, the better. If we only read "safe stories" this place would close down for lack of traffic. I always enjoy reading other people's takes on a story, more so if they don't agree with mine.

I think the water/ocean/ice theme is beautifully woven into the story. It's definitely a little ambiguous - more of an evocative mood theme than something that demands literal interpretation. However, as I am ever a fan of interpretation: the ocean and water, in this fic, seem to be roughly representative of life. More specifically, of Mulder and Scully's lives, and the immense capacity for anguish that is a constant feature of their lives. None of the several descriptions of the ocean involve a temperate, unthreatening sea. The ocean is 'seething with ice' or 'churning with ice' - it is a hungry and inexplicable desolver of ships. And when Scully is dying in the hospital, we get this staggering bit of description:

Surely it is snowing outside, surely there is ice being laid in layers, fastening them into these moments, this place of mass so mountainous it is almost weightless.

It harkens back to what Scully writes in Dod Kalm as she's waiting to die of old age, the myth of the world freezing as it comes to an end.

And, in my favorite line from the fic, Scully's vitality is described as the ocean, ebbing.

She stills him with her eyes, and he does not look away. The ocean is shifting. He tries to hold it, the tide. Tries, and tries to let it go.

The sleet on Thanksgiving is a bit of a departure from the ocean theme, but it fits within the larger theme of "water = life force". Mulder goes outside, wanting to let the sweet chill seep and quiet his mind. Alone, he seeks the cold for comfort. It's a safe cold, he can choose how much of it he wants to bear. But later, when he and Scully embrace:

The cold roughs the windowpanes but is no rival to this intimacy, this sacred heat.

Mulder's pie is one of the only mentions of warmth in ROTW, prior to him arriving at Scully's house:

The once-frozen filling swirls volcanic in its crumbling shell, crust
burning brown on one edge.

And he brings that to her. He's out of his element in the kitchen, but he's made something - heated it - and he brings it to her.

Cold water is loneliness. Ice is fear, and destruction, and grief. So naturally heat is love, kindness, thanks-giving.

I really like

infinitlight's observation about "Pater" meaning "father." I know JET often gives places in her fics quirky and indirectly appropriate names, which I love.

One of my many favorite things about JET's writing is her exquisite use of cadence. They're beautiful words, but they also have a rhythm.

His hands are old again, the snowglobe has melted.

In the apartment, someone is scraping a plate. In the apartment, someone is saying goodbye.

He tries to hold it, the tide. Tries, and tries to let it go.

There are more examples than this, but these were the ones I felt the strongest, the first time I read ROTW, because as it turns out, these have symmetry. You could put a fulcrum in the middle of each of these lines, and they would balance.

I find it interesting that Scully's response to Mulder is "Tell me about the stars. And tell me about basketball."

He has asked her to tell him about the things he dreamed about: her father, and the sea. But stars were also in Mulder's dream:

She tips his chin up and points. "Not bad," she says, admiring the view above them, "your galaxy." They stare up at the stars

Was Scully dreaming of Mulder too, the way he was dreaming about her? She was asleep when he came in. For that matter, did they share aspects of each other's dreams? I have no idea of this is a valid theory about JET's intentions, or just my own imagination. I'd like it to be the former.

There are things in ROTW I could be critical of. The dream sequence is confusing, even for a dream sequence, and sometimes the narrative can be a bit too gauzy. But those things don't really diminish my appreciation for the fic. They hinder in some spots, but they also add texture to the emotional landscape of the story.

Story 187: "Relic of Tough Weather" by Jesemie's Evil Twin

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Themes: Fear and Love

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Themes: Ice and Heat

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