The Darkness Within
Sep. 14th, 2014 06:34 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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xf_book_clubI CAN POST ENTRIES ON THE BOOK CLUB! MWWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
*coughs*
Anywayyyy...
Wendy said I was welcome to post that here, so here we go.
~~~~~~~~~~
(First posted on Haven)
Moose and Squirrel - before being declawed and tamed by scores of fic writers intent on giving them the white picket fence happiness they were never designed for in the first place - were pretty dark and tortured characters to begin with. A given, considering how much crap they went through in the show.
Back in the days many fic writers explored that dark path and gave us many incredible stories, the quintessential one being, of course, the infamous Iolokus. Stories where the characters' traumas weren't swept under the carpet of True Love (TM) Hot Sex, Domestic Life and Fat Babies. Stories where bad things happened to good people.
They were stories such as:
Arizona Highway by Fialka
Secret World by Bonetree
Grace Realized by Michaela
Injuries to The Spirit by Mystphile
The Mill by Cofax
...to name just a few off the top of my head.
In these stories Mulder and Scully were flawed and damaged. Years of turmoil and horrors weren't cured with a kiss and a soft bed. They had issues with one another, they argued and fought. They could be unfair, cruel, monstrous even - their claustrophobic co-dependency toxic, yet unavoidable. They suffered, battled illnesses both mental and physical, and sometimes they even died. Some stories made a point of reminding us how dangerous their job really was - that the human monsters could be worse than the alien ones. But their spirit shone nevertheless through it all, pure and bright, that elusive spark of magnificence that made them - well, you know, THEM.
As a reader I always found those tales much more emotionally rewarding than those of the bunnies and rainbow - Mulder and Scully in love forever in their pretty house with their pretty children - aw, look he has his mother's eyes and his father's nose - variety.
No pain no gain, uh?
I guess my question is: have you read such stories? Do you enjoy them? Can you rec the ones that stayed with you?
~Fish~
*coughs*
Anywayyyy...
Wendy said I was welcome to post that here, so here we go.
~~~~~~~~~~
(First posted on Haven)
Moose and Squirrel - before being declawed and tamed by scores of fic writers intent on giving them the white picket fence happiness they were never designed for in the first place - were pretty dark and tortured characters to begin with. A given, considering how much crap they went through in the show.
Back in the days many fic writers explored that dark path and gave us many incredible stories, the quintessential one being, of course, the infamous Iolokus. Stories where the characters' traumas weren't swept under the carpet of True Love (TM) Hot Sex, Domestic Life and Fat Babies. Stories where bad things happened to good people.
They were stories such as:
Arizona Highway by Fialka
Secret World by Bonetree
Grace Realized by Michaela
Injuries to The Spirit by Mystphile
The Mill by Cofax
...to name just a few off the top of my head.
In these stories Mulder and Scully were flawed and damaged. Years of turmoil and horrors weren't cured with a kiss and a soft bed. They had issues with one another, they argued and fought. They could be unfair, cruel, monstrous even - their claustrophobic co-dependency toxic, yet unavoidable. They suffered, battled illnesses both mental and physical, and sometimes they even died. Some stories made a point of reminding us how dangerous their job really was - that the human monsters could be worse than the alien ones. But their spirit shone nevertheless through it all, pure and bright, that elusive spark of magnificence that made them - well, you know, THEM.
As a reader I always found those tales much more emotionally rewarding than those of the bunnies and rainbow - Mulder and Scully in love forever in their pretty house with their pretty children - aw, look he has his mother's eyes and his father's nose - variety.
No pain no gain, uh?
I guess my question is: have you read such stories? Do you enjoy them? Can you rec the ones that stayed with you?
~Fish~
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no subject
Date: 2014-09-14 07:37 pm (UTC)Okay, I'm trying to think of this one novel that I loved, a writer I came to really late and one I don't think was popularly recognized, either? In fact I might have found this author in the last year of the show - maybe after - all I need to do is find the freakin' folder, because I can't recall the name of either author or fic.
The story was a casefile which sees Scully in prison...and that's about all I remember.
And seriously, if you haven't read Branwell - you're in for a treat.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-14 11:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-09-15 05:42 pm (UTC)You didn't ask this question, but it might be worth discussing, too. Why is there so much happy-ending and/or William-obsessed fanfic being written now? Why is it so popular with the general readership, almost to the exclusion of anything else?
These are in addition to "Arizona Highways" and "The Mill" on my personal list of favorites. You didn't mention Penumbra's Fathoms Five, but I assume that would make your short list. It's on mine. When applicable, the links are to our posts rather than the stories because I'm lazy. This is just off the top of my head. There are many, many others.
Short and Tragic
How A Resurrection Really Feels by idella.
And if I make my bed in Sheol by threeguesses.
Telephones by cucumberspy.
Drive, He Said by Jennifer-Oksana.
Blue Patches by Maybe Amanda.
To Carthage Then I Came by Annakovsky.
One and Only, First and Last by onpaperfirst.
Darkfic Novellas
Hollow Day by Kel.
Oyster by Jordan.
Certitude by Justin Glasser.
Night Giving Off Flames by JET.
The Sin Eater by Jane Mortimer.
Long, Dark Novels
Fugue by Rivkat. A story so dark that I begged her to write me a more hopeful ending. It is a little more hopeful, but not happy. Devoutly to be wished.
The Other Man by Jess Mabe. Really dark. Really, really dark. No, I mean it.
Anything by prufrock's love. Negative Utopia is probably the darkest of her fics. My favorite is "The 13th Sign." The revised version can be read at her page at Gossamer; we discussed it here if you are interested.
Neither Here Nor There by Tesla is a well-written fic that features a very dysfunctional Moose and Squirrel.
More stories? What the heck. Here are all of my recs at crack_van. I couldn't figure out a way to screen for the ones for The X-Files. Looking these over, I'd say the stories by Sophia Jiraffe portray a particularly dysfunctional, but believable version of MSR. "Sokol" by Khyber is exciting, long and dark. Just browse until you find something you think you'd like. I recced a wide variety of fic but there is plenty of angst to be sure.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2014-09-16 04:13 pm (UTC)I've a capacity to enjoy the dark and often do, but I'm a bit of a coward about the Ultimate Unhappy Ending. As in "Everybody Having a Good Time" by Sabine, which I couldn't get through. And Sabine's a good writer. Good writing--as in the above fics--makes a terrific difference, but I find it equally important that a fic not milk you for tears gratuitously, ie, is bathetic. Brief can be shattering and then you can put it behind you.
I adore "Iolokus." Reasons: humor plus a happy ending. I dislike "Oklahoma," which isn't recced here though at one time it had quite a following. People thought is was classy (my guess) because TS Eliot everywhere you look.
It is bathetic. They were practically wheeling spiritual crushed Mulder around on a gurney.
What would I add? Julie Fortune's "Fata Morgana." Amal's "The Machines of Freedom" is excellent, though perhaps not tragic enough to qualify. And what was that multi-author invasion saga we talked about. There was an excellent bit about poor, deluded Samantha discovering the falsity of her whole life just in time for the world to end.
This is scattered. Perhaps because I'm very conflicted. I think, for instance, that Khyber's "Sokol" is a challenging masterwork, but I don't think I designate it as tragic. Dark, yes, dark. But kind of happy at the end.
The happy, baby-producing fics are foreign territory to me. I don't think I've ever read any. But there is a wonderful short piece called "China Patterns" that busts that trope up pretty good.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-16 04:15 pm (UTC)ooooh yes
Date: 2014-09-16 08:02 pm (UTC)earlier this month Meda posted an excellent essay about the h/c fanfiction subgenre (http://andromedalogic.tumblr.com/post/97024318847/bananapeppers-to-condense-it-down-horribly); in it she explores some of the reasons why h/c and angst appeal to fanfiction writers and readers (and she included references). I don’t agree with all of her points, but it was definitely a worthwhile read.
“The Soft Embalmer” (http://scarletbaldy.livejournal.com/30410.html) by Scarlet Baldy. →
“the blue series” by Susan. → warnings: major physical trauma which may constitute body horror; explicit violence in later installments.
“Night Touch” (http://sophia-helix.livejournal.com/496478.html) by Sophia Jirafe. →
“Unintended Consequences” (http://web.archive.org/web/20090819095040/http://www.borghalrantipole.com/stories/unintended.txt) by Sarah Segretti. →
“Anyone with a Gun” (http://archiveofourown.org/works/3530) by V. Salmone (Punk Maneuverability & Sabine). → warnings: as for “Orison.”
“for the weary” (http://threeguesses.livejournal.com/4141.html) by threeguesses.
“How a Resurrection Really Feels” (http://archiveofourown.org/works/72471) by idella. →
“White Noise” (http://x-files.bytewright.com/arcWh/WhiteNoise.html) by Adrienne.
I have to run! I’ll come back with more of my favorites later. (I promise they’re not all “Orison”-related.) (http://possibilities.bravehost.com/blue.html)
(frozen) Beware: spoilers for fanfic here
Date: 2014-09-16 08:03 pm (UTC)I can't see a fic that ends with Mulder and Scully on the run as any kind of happy ending. That's how the series concluded, except in "Sokol" they end up somewhere in South America instead of W. Virginia. It's an original concept, brilliantly executed, and as far away from the hashed-over romance and/or babyfic tropes that the fandom remnant is currently recycling as one can imagine. It's true that Mulder and Scully are still alive at the end, but with hungry space ghosts still out there and colonization still on the horizon, that's not exactly a happy ending, is it?
Though I would disagree that "Negative Utopia" is the darkest of Prufrock's Love's (awkward) fics. There was one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!
Roadtrip-lagged or not, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Let's do a comparison of the two novels.
"Negative Utopia" features colonization, with most of humanity being dead of disease, starvation, or murder. Humans are killed by their own kind and hunted down by the aliens. Women are murdered, turned into property, or become "whores." Skinner gets beheaded at Mulder's request, Gibson is raping a child who gets pregnant and dies in childbirth, Scully is having sex with Mulder because she is too afraid to refuse him. Marita has a child by Mulder, so he's been fucking with her, too. Strangely, after the apocalypse, no one remembers how to use birth control (now I'm mocking prufrock). Mulder has been helping the colonists, so he's a traitor to humanity. That litany of horrors is just off the top of my head.
"The Wasteland" is the "one in which M marries a S lookalike and then CD and it was dreadful!" Admittedly, I read it a long time ago, but despite the unhappy ending, I didn't find it that depressing.
Even if it had ended with a double murder-suicide, I don't see how it can be darker than the darkest novel about colonization that the fandom produced. Billions dead | Mulder and/or Scully plus their respective spouses dead and/or unhappy. I know which sounds darker to me. Mulder and Scully ending up together at the end of the world doesn't really mitigate the catastrophe of "Negative Utopia." YMMV.
I didn't list "Everyone Having a Good Time" simply because I didn't like it. Ditto for "Oklahoma." Very over-rated fanfics, imho.
I admire Julie Fortune and I do like "Fata Morgana." We've never discussed it here, have we? It's very well-written. It somehow doesn't fit the darkfic genre for me but I'd have to think about it some more to explain why.
I agree that "Machines of Freedom" as a standalone doesn't fit this category. It's the opposite of dark fic, isn't it? Humanity is saved, Mulder and Scully get reunited with William without offing his parents. Casey goes back in time so that Mulder is saved and along the way her brother William is saved, too. The darkfic is all of the stuff that happens to her and Scully off stage in the other timeline. Many of the Caseyverse fics that Amal wrote afterward are darkfic, for sure.
Re: ooooh yes
Date: 2014-09-16 08:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-09-16 08:39 pm (UTC)Seriously I get it. Iolokus is extreme in its angst levels. But the second half of the saga - the more moving, funny, touching part makes all the initial misery and despair so worth it IMO.
I don't think I've ever read 'Scully in prison' stories.
Branwell, the name rings a bell. I think I did read "Condemned to repeat it", back when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth - but of course have no memory of the story itself.
(frozen) Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic here
Date: 2014-09-16 08:53 pm (UTC)(frozen) Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic here
Date: 2014-09-16 09:00 pm (UTC)Re: ooooh yes
Date: 2014-09-16 09:19 pm (UTC)Hurt/comfort isn't the same thing as darkfic to me, although they do fit under the general angst umbrella. I'll have to think about it some more and get back to you if I figure out why.
"The Soft Embalmer" is totally twisted and dark. (Go Fish, go!)
I'll have to go reread amyhit's essay and then read andromedalogic's response. I wonder if amyhit even knows about the essay since she's not on Tumblr.
RE: Orison fanfic. I had totally forgotten that "Night Touch" was also a post-Orison fic. That episode produced a lot of great fic, didn't it?
no subject
Date: 2014-09-16 09:22 pm (UTC)That is a great list! Thank you! I have read a few of them, but my memory is fuzzy, I will need to revisit them. Idella's Resurrection is one of my all time favourite. My stomach does little flips every time I read it. The writing is so gorgeous.
Why is there so much happy-ending and/or William-obsessed fanfic being written now? Why is it so popular with the general readership, almost to the exclusion of anything else?
I am not sure I can answer this without sounding like an arrogant elitist bitch.
Oh well...
A)babyfic has always been a popular genre I don't think this is a recent phenomenon.
B)less writers means less quality writing. It means more pedestrian, predictable stories. The mediocre quality stuff that used to fade in the background back in the days because we had so many awesome writers to pay attention to is now back center stage because the fandom royalty has buggered off.
C)Again, I'll be an old fart and ask: is it possible that the current general readership is less well read than the old one and therefore less discerning? I've noticed the shift in various forums where I hang out, from Oh No They Didn't to TV Com, to Reddit - how less articulate people seem to be in general, than say, 15 years ago. In the old days, the computer savvy people tended to be the literate, highly educated kind. But today everybody is online. Therefore there might be a 'downward tug' in terms of readership desires and expectations, less TS Eliot, more Entertainment Weekly.
ETA: damn I really must go to bed, but I need to add this: I'm not saying happy fics or baby fics are inherently bad, but that bad stories often seem to fall in those categories. Am I making sense?
no subject
Date: 2014-09-17 12:17 am (UTC)Despite being a shipper through and through, I was never a fan of the white picket fence stories. Domesticity has its place, but I was never drawn to the stories that focused almost solely on it. This isn't necessarily true of fic I read in other fandoms, such as BBC Sherlock, but I could never buy M/S settled down in suburbia raising a passel of kids.
That said, I also don't like to drown in angst. My favorite stories tend to be more balanced and have a little bit of everything thrown in. And happy endings.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-17 02:54 pm (UTC)I think for me it was "Fugue" but "The Other Man" comes in a close second.
Despite being a shipper through and through, I was never a fan of the white picket fence stories. Domesticity has its place, but I was never drawn to the stories that focused almost solely on it. This isn't necessarily true of fic I read in other fandoms, such as BBC Sherlock, but I could never buy M/S settled down in suburbia raising a passel of kids.
So it's not the genre you object to, it's the characterization?
That said, I also don't like to drown in angst. My favorite stories tend to be more balanced and have a little bit of everything thrown in. And happy endings.
I like happy endings, too, as long as they're right for the story and don't seem forced or rushed. My favorite writer is still Kel. In her best work, she's able to weave elements of dark and light, humor and sadness, together with style and grace. She's a marvelous storyteller.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-17 04:11 pm (UTC)I also don't like to drown in angst, so usually after reading something that goes too far in that direction, I will go for a re-read of something on the other end of the spectrum to give myself mental balance :) But that would usually be something fun and/or hot like "Above Rubies" (Rachel Howard) or something sweet like "The Dreaming Sea" (Revely) - not generally picket fences / babyfic. Not to say I haven't read my share of the babyfic, but it almost always feels out of character and therefore does not succeed in my mental rebalancing efforts :)
PS I did not care for Iolokus either, fwiw.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-17 05:46 pm (UTC)I suppose not. The pregnancy fics must have begun during the hiatus between seasons seven and eight. There were plenty of people writing Emily-related fics, I'd imagine. And I guess the fandom peaked right after the 1998 movie? It's been all downhill since then?
It's not the pregnancy in and of itself that disturbs me. One can theoretically write good fic which includes that element. But you do need a plot of some kind. Mulder and Scully going to Lamaze classes together is not a plot. If Mulder and Scully are attending Lamaze classes and discover that they're being followed, and Mulder gets furious and starts investigating and Scully gets mad because he's putting himself in danger again, and calls Skinner and Doggett in, which makes Mulder even madder, then you've got a plot, and it even kinda fits into canon. (I didn't say it was a good plot. But at least you'd have conflict AND you'd have Mulder behaving like Mulder.) But no one is writing that sort of baby-and-pregnancy fic.
B)less writers means less quality writing. It means more pedestrian, predictable stories. The mediocre quality stuff that used to fade in the background back in the days because we had so many awesome writers to pay attention to is now back center stage because the fandom royalty has buggered off.
People do move on, and TXF seemed to attract more than its fair share of fandom serial monogamists, i.e. folks who can only be fannish about one show at a time. And that still doesn't explain why the popular kids are all writing babyfic.
C) Again, I'll be an old fart and ask: is it possible that the current general readership is less well read than the old one and therefore less discerning? I've noticed the shift in various forums where I hang out, from Oh No They Didn't to TV Com, to Reddit - how less articulate people seem to be in general, than say, 15 years ago. In the old days, the computer savvy people tended to be the literate, highly educated kind. But today everybody is online. Therefore there might be a 'downward tug' in terms of readership desires and expectations, less TS Eliot, more Entertainment Weekly.
Maybe. I love Entertainment Weekly and T.S. Elliot. You can love high culture and low culture. They aren't mutually exclusive.
I have another theory, stolen from a discussion about MCU in a friend's journal. It's not a locked post so I guess I can quote her?
She goes on to suggest that maybe this is the reason there are so many MCU coffee shop and high school AUs. That made me think about the fic being written in our fandom. The most popular XF story circulating on Tumblr is a college AU, where Scully is in medical school on the same campus where Mulder is getting his psych degree. It makes no sense whatsover--no real medical student would have time to chase all over after spooks and aliens with Mulder--but there is a lot of making out, spooning and wearing each others clothes. It appeals to the XF Tumblr demographic which skews very young and knows little or nothing about college in the USA or attending medical school anywhere. Maybe these fans love Mulder and Scully but since their sister wasn't abducted by aliens and they don't work for the FBI, they don't find much with which to identify. To get around that, they write AUs that they can relate to more easily: going to
high schoolcollege, having babies, and raising a family.I started writing a crackfic AU where Mulder and Scully are shelter cats so I kind of get the impulse.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-17 06:23 pm (UTC)That's fascinating. I loved "Five Years and One Night" and have recced it everywhere I can think of, but I'd never have picked it for my angst list. It's on my Mulder and Scully have hot sex and adventures list, just below "Above Rubies."
I just went back to the 2008 book club "FYaON" entry. Shalimar commented at the end that she'd googled her user name and the title and found our post. Does every XF author from back in the day do that, I wonder? (cackles)
XF Dryad said she doesn't like "Iolokus" because its just angst for the sake of angst (she's wrong-wrong-wrong, because it's a reaction to the bizarro aspects of the myth arc just like "Arizona Highways," which she loves.). I love "Iolokus" for the over-the-top humor, style and plot, and just because it's such a crazy-ass wild-ride of a fic.
(1/?)
Date: 2014-09-18 12:11 am (UTC)“Much Madness Is Divinest Sense” (http://archiveofourown.org/works/78598) by Naraht. S3 sometime after “Wetwired.” → warnings: disabling mental illness, suicidality, and suicidal act. → from my notes: “One of my all-time favorite works in the fandom, with perfectly depicted moments and realistic characterizations.”
Resurgam (http://ioho.org.uk/resurgam_nc17.txt) by Ophelia. S7; “Emily” central to story. →
“Loss of Yesterday” (http://hesychasm.dreamwidth.org/2970.html) by Jintian. S2 between “Firewalker” and “Irresistible.” →
“Butterfly” (http://oracle.invidiosa.com/butterfly.html) by Oracle. S2, “Excelsis Dei” post-ep. →
“Falling Stars” (http://web.archive.org/web/20050306102646/home.comcast.net/~juliefortune/X-files/fallingstars.htm) by Julie Fortune. freestanding. →
“Of Ladies Most Deject and Wretched” (http://www.invidiosa.com/circe/fanfic/ofladies.html) by Circe Invidiosa & Helen Quilley. S7, “Orison” post-ep. → warnings: as for “Orison.”
“Living with the Dreaming Body” (http://ioho.org.uk/livingdream.htm) by Punk Maneuverability. S5 sometime after “Emily.” →
“Reflections as the Light Begins to Fade” (http://archiveofourown.org/works/35410) by Amilyn (Amy L. Hull). S3, “Paper Clip” post-ep.
“Five Things That Never Happened to Dana Scully” (http://anythingbutgrey.livejournal.com/791475.html) by
*
Guilty angsty pleasures
Comfortably Numb (http://www.keyofx.org/fiction_Paige%20Caldwell-Comfortably%20Numb.txt) by Paige Caldwell. S6 sometime after “Tithonus.” → warnings: substance abuse/addiction.
Re: ooooh yes
Date: 2014-09-18 12:16 am (UTC)(2/2)
Date: 2014-09-18 12:21 am (UTC)“Crowning Glory” (http://malindalo.com/scully/fanfic/crowningglory.txt) by CiCi Lean. → via Malinda Lo’s Dana Scully Uncovered: X-Files Fan Fiction and the Posthuman Body: “Disease / Dis-Ease.” (http://malindalo.com/scully/disease.htm) → warnings: cancerarc and potentially triggering in eating disorders.
*
Subtler (i.e., less-than-extreme) angst
“triptych: but for the urge of this unrest” (http://baroquechemistry.tumblr.com/post/11355065410/triptych-but-for-the-urge-of-this-unrest-never) by baroquechemistry (Raye). S4, “Never Again” fill-in.
This is classified as angst but in the rumination sense: “In Ed’s Bed” (http://fluky.gossamer.org/author/11690-1.html) by Nancy V. S4, “Never Again” fill-in. → from my notes: “Thoughts that occur late at night in lieu of sleep. Nice.”
*
Two others I neglected to include in my previous comment:
“Keeping Melissa” (http://fluky.gossamer.org/author/15791-1.html) by Oracle.
“Careful” (http://fluky.gossamer.org/author/15791-1.html) by Oracle. S4, sometime after “Never Again.”
“Ante Bellum” (http://fluky.gossamer.org/author/16299-1.html) by Athene. S4, “Never Again” fill-in.
*
I don’t remember if Justin Glasser’s “Kevin” (http://www.reocities.com/Paris/Lights/7752/kevin1.html) (
I’m another person who doesn’t like Iolokus, although I haven’t read it in a long time. I remember thinking the violence was indulgently graphic. I read Megan Reilly’s Anamorphosis (http://www.annex-files.com/annex/annex/stories/anamorphosis.txt) more recently, and my feelings about it are similar but even stronger.
no subject
Date: 2014-09-18 12:36 am (UTC)I think so. I mean, I loved many of the one-shots or longer stories that aren't case fic or serious angst, whether it's M/S making dinner or cleaning house, etc., but as far as M/S married and with a bunch of kids? That never really worked for me. Married and with William? Yes, but not where they're going to PTA meetings. I say that, but I bet there is at least one story like that that I probably read and loved.
I agree with you about happy endings needing to fit the story. "Contact High" by Penumbra is one of my favorites; it has a little bit of everything and yet that ending...it hurts.
I haven't read Kel in a long time, must go back for some rereads.
Re: ooooh yes
Date: 2014-09-18 12:49 am (UTC)There’s a sequel?! Downloading now.
I’m with you—angst appeals to me but h/c doesn’t. I’m sure some of it’s because I’m a noromo, but regardless, h/c simplifies and romanticizes traumatic experiences and healing processes. I get why people write it (which is what Meda discusses in her essay), but it’s a rare h/c work that doesn’t rub me the wrong way.
I doubt
“Orison” must be less popular now than it used to be. It’s one of my favorite episodes, but I believed I was in the minority until I searched Gossamer. Someone somewhere, maybe in their author’s note?, even complained about the overwhelming quantity of “Orison” post-ep fic.
(frozen) Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic here
Date: 2014-09-18 12:51 am (UTC)(frozen) Re: Beware: spoilers for fanfic here
Date: 2014-09-18 01:57 am (UTC)I didn't get much discussion going though. I don't know why. I still think it's brilliant.