X-Files Book Club

Ooh, how have I not read this yet? By Littlejo? *dashes off*

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bardsmaid.livejournal.com

Zuffy and Littljoe were good friends of mine and fellow denizens of The Cave. I'd forgotten they collaborated on this one. I'll have to go read it, too.

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Yes, that's where I recognize the names from! And given how much I love The Cave, I figure this is something I must read. ;)

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wendelah1

Please do read it and come back to give us your thoughts.

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I've read quite a few fics in that time period, and I must say this is my favorite. It treats Mulder's anguish well without marginalizing Scully. Doggett manages to be the Doggett we've seen on the show but with depth, not just the character who needs to be the voice of reason to Mulder and Scully. I particularly liked how Doggett's departure was written in the end. The focus was clearly on M&S, but you could definitely feel Doggett's presence.

Which brings me on to the actual writing, which I really liked. The present tense, the steady, unrelenting paragraphs about Mulder's thoughts worked. It fit with the mood of the episodes and added more to the show, which is especially hard to do with Season 8.

Season 8 sucked. It wasn't just the ludicrous writing (super soldiers don't hold a candle to the bad ass coolness of the consortium), but just sloppy research. In particular I hated how they made light of Scully's pregnancy. First, her gestation was like an elephant's. Second, how the hell do you stand up to do an autopsy at 39 weeks pregnant after having an abruption. Wouldn't you be ordered to have mandatory bedrest? The only reason I watch parts of Season 8 is because the tender moments between Mulder and Scully were wonderful. It made schmoopy shipper heart happy.

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Heh, I could've written pretty much this entire comment. Bravo!

I loved this story. A lot, a lot, a lot. So many writers, when trying to handle Mulder, just make him angry and angsty and confused without bothering to try to understand why he would be (and he's got plenty of reason to be, just as Scully does). I'm interested in the why behind all of it, since we got almost none of that on-screen. This is a new favorite of mine, so I'm really glad it was posted here. I recognize these characters fully, and that's a tricky minefield to navigate in the wasteland of S8 and beyond. How refreshing.

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I don't mind angsty Mulder, but I love it when the angsty Mulder is a logical extension of the angsty Mulder from canon, rather than a stereotype of what the authors think an angsty PSTD victim should be.

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wendelah1

This is a really good point. What, for you, differentiates these two different characterizations? What works about this fic that's different from another fic, not necessarily even season eight. Personal disclosure: I am especially interested because I am writing an angst-filled version of Mulder right now.

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Hmm, that's a tough one, and has a lot to do with what I feel is specific to Mulder in canon, so little details such as syntax of the writing matches the way Mulder speaks on screen, how it also helps to recreate the mood of the X-files. In Fractured Landscape, the almost stream of consciousness writing fits the mood of the ep and more importantly, mimics the way Mulder speaks.

Mulder wants to grab that hand out of the air. He'll send the messages that need sending and he hates this man for the presumption of a hand signal to his partner. Only he suddenly realizes that this stranger also claims her as a partner. They've sat in the basement office, exchanged jokes, shared meals across a table, driven side by side in rental cars, trudged through distant airports late at night, learned to read each other's gestures and faces. This stranger with his static electricity hair and down-home accent and Aqua Velva sweat knew about her baby before Mulder did. And now he arrogates the right to send her away. Mulder rises again because he's going to keep with his plan and escape this man who is not above reproach after all.

This rang really true because the imagery is so specific, which is the way Mulder thinks, and anchors the piece to the show.

It's easy to write about what things trigger Mulder's angst, but equally important is how he would go about thinking about them. Most fics I know haven't been as successful in that regard.

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Just had another thought - one thing that appealed to me a lot of the fic was that the language wasn't flowery. Yes, there are good writers who can get away with it, but it never manages to stop me thinking that this is what the writer wishes the X-files could be, rather than what it actually is. This is a show that's stark but for brief moments of gorgeousness, so when a writer can tell it without cluttering the language or making the imagery over-delicate, then yay!

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one thing that appealed to me a lot of the fic was that the language wasn't flowery.

i think i had a hard time with this. it felt bland for me. there were a lot of good lines that sliced through with their intensity, but this particular style of prose - the style that is very much prose with not a lot of poetry in the mix - makes me feel distanced and also kind of bored. it's stiff and weighty with writerly intent - and it's not at all conversational or coy either, so there isn't that to make it go down easier. that's entirely a personal taste, mind you, and has little to do with whether the writing is 'good' or not, because it seems pretty 'good' to me. the writers clearly know what they're doing. it's technically well managed, and it's well paced - it begins and ends in the right places...

apparently 'frank' ate my post. sorry for the edits. i got confused.

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See I'm just the opposite. It's easy for many talented writers to unload fancy imagery and colorful language, but it takes a very good one to find out only what's necessary to move the story along, and keep the reader wanting more. I have a particular aversion to reading more than is necessary, hence why I'm not as mad about penumbra as the rest of fandom is. Hence why Revolutionary Road is one of my favorite books.
That's not to say I like writing where the writer clearly views the characters as subjects of examination though. Actually, that turns me off for different reasons.

Back to the fic, I don't think this is the strongest writing I've read, but it captures the characters well, it fills in the gaps and gets Mulder and Scully in a lovely moment, so I'm happy.

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wendelah1

I agree. I like a more direct narrative style as well. Cofax7's short story "Ash" is a good example of the sort of writing I love. Her style is very compact without sacrificing emotional nuance.

I like Penumbra's style more than I used to and while I think "Parabiosis" is over-written in places, and has no plot to speak of, it does have some lovely moments. In fact, unlike Zellie, I like the ending of that story very much, and think it fits into the mood and tone of Requiem perfectly. However, her latest story, "Fathoms Five" is a much better piece of fiction. I like "Black Hole Season" better too.

That's not to say I like writing where the writer clearly views the characters as subjects of examination though.

What does the phrase, "subjects of examination," mean?

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I liked the ending only because I love the rara avis line. Other than that I don't remember much about Paraboisis. I do love Contact High though.

What does the phrase, "subjects of examination," mean?

I was trying to be pithy. But basically, there are writers who clearly don't empathize with their characters and put them through the motions just to see what makes them tick. Oftentimes, they're less interested in the characters as people and the writer is more interested in how they serve in the broader, panoramic statement, hence their writing comes off as very cold. Don Delilio is one such writer. It's not a problem in fandom because every fan is in love with the characters they're writing.

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wendelah1

It's not a problem in fandom because every fan is in love with the characters they're writing.

It certainly is less of a problem although I don't think fandom is without writers who lack empathy for their characters. In XF, for example, there are writers who love Mulder and dislike Scully, for example, and vice-versa. For me, the best example of this is Tesla's Mulder/Other stories, especially "Flight," but also to a lesser extent "Neither Here Nor There." Even in "This House Is Burning," which I love, Mulder is the star of the show. Scully really doesn't get much to do that's terribly interesting other than moon over Mulder and have really hot sex with him. Scully is written pretty sympathetically in the last two stories, but I still don't love and believe in Tesla's Scully the way I do tree's, to name just one example.

And I don't think you have to love your characters to treat them fairly as a writer; moreover, loving a character is no guarantee of empathy. There is no doubt in my mind that at least some of the writers of extreme Mulder torture stories love Mulder but surely they couldn't empathize with him and still write what they do? In order to write those scenes, they must be able to create far more distance from the character than I am able as either a writer or a reader. It's probably useful to be able to do that: otherwise, a writer can't dig as deeply. That's kind of paradoxical. It's probably not true for every writer, either. Oh, well.

This is really off in left field but I also think causing pain, whether mental or physical, to a character has a different meaning to some writers (and readers) than it does to others. I'm still stuck in the problem of torture in fan fiction. It's a real squick for me, as you can tell. It's just that some stories seem to be written for the sole purpose of hurting the characters. Let's have Mulder give himself up to a sexual sadist so I can write chapter after chapter of vivid descriptions of rape and abuse and see what happens to him. Even stories that have the characters do stupid things make me queasy, because they seem to have been written just in order to humiliate the characters. Usually, the writers want to torture Mulder and humiliate Scully. I don't know what this means, but it does disturb me, maybe more than it ought.

In any case, Mulder, Scully and Doggett are all treated very sympathetically and fairly by the writers of "The Fractured Landscape," despite the POV being Mulder's alone (I think).

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I haven't read any of the fics you mentioned, so I really can't comment. But generally, because I read a very narrow range of fics, most of them have dealt with M&S quite well. Everyone in fandom (especially XF) is writing because they like the characters, not really because they want to make some statement about the American soul. But anyway, that also means I can't comment on Mulder torture fics because I've never read them, and um, don't really plan to.

And I certainly agree that having distance to your character is a good thing, but on a personal note, I'm not interested in writers who only do that. In my mind, loving your characters (and indeed people in general) isn't giving them a free-for-all.

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wendelah1

I don't read and wouldn't recommend Mulder Torture fic in general, but it is common enough to have had its own Archive back in the day. I only read enough of the story I referenced to ascertain what it was and make a mental note not to read it again. The author did warn so it isn't her fault I got burned.

I do read, or at least try, a pretty broad range of stories, but from what I can tell your fandom experience is much more common. Most people have very specific requirements for what they will read and what they won't, which is one of the reasons why the warning debate got as heated as it did.

I think being a gen person is one of the reasons I read (and write) more pairings than most people in XF. People in XF seem to ship one pairing pretty hard and don't enjoy any of the others. Mulder/Scully people don't read Mulder/Krycek and so on. This was true in Stargate SG-1 fandom, too, maybe even more so. And it looks like the same thing is happening in Star Trek Reboot. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking aloud. This all seems very obvious, I'm sure, but it has taken me some time to figure out.

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wendelah1

What else have you read? Is there nothing else you liked? I have one other fic to rec here next week but there have to be some more interesting stories. It's such a frakked up season and usually that kind of mess makes people want to write fixit fic.

I'm glad you liked this. I guess I'd better go reread it myself now.

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I like quite a few fics from season 8, being a sucker for baby fic and all, but they're mostly AUs. In particular, I like Buckingham's fics. MaybeAmanda and Spookey247 have written several good ones. But this fic has been the best fixit fic I know that still manages to follow canon.

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This fic is an idea example of the problem I have when it comes to most late seasons fic. I disagree with the most basic elements of the characterizations of mulder (and of scully, as mulder sees her), yet it’s a well written fic, with quite a few moments and even entire sections where I can forget what it is I don’t agree with and appreciate what’s there.

he thinks, Scully moving out of the life they had built, out toward something called normal when she knows that "normal" doesn't apply to anyone any more, least of all to them. She used to know.

this bothers me the most, probably, of anything in the fic. I don’t believe that scully was leaving work for a normal life (and if she was, then I don’t want to know, frankly) and I also don't think that mulder would be that cynical in how he thought of her. It’s almost condescending of him to think this way, and I can take a lot from mulder, but condescension is not something that suits him.

not that it mattered because she couldn't be pregnant. There shouldn't be a baby. They couldn't have what they wanted. She'd picked up his hand and started to draw it toward her. How do you know? he wanted to ask, but instead he smiled because he knew what was required.

this is the other prominent representation of what bothers me about the M/S dynamic in this fic (and in canon, and in a lot of other S8 fics). I don’t like that he seems to feel this obligation. I don’t think that scully expected things of him. She’s never really expected things of him before. She’s wanted things, demanded, but it was always a sort of unspoken or spoken negotiation process: working things out in a way that was sensitive to each other. And now mulder thinks, ‘well but she’s a MOTHER now, so she’ll have all sorts of MOTHER priorities that I’ll have to fit myself to. Argh.

Besides, I tend to take the ‘Parabiosos’ approach to the pregnancy story line, in thinking that mulder kind of knew. Or that even if he didn’t know in words, something in him felt that scully was pregnant. So that waking up and finding her pregnant was sort of like remembering something that happened in a dream - you already knew, but you’d buried it again.

He hears a scuffing sound up close and freezes, then realizes that it is only his hands still rubbing across his jeans. He lets out his breath and it's at that moment that he spots a glint off a windshield and realizes that she's moved the car closer to the gate. She's safe and is waiting for him

and this felt manipulative and weak to me: “SCULLY’S GONE!!! oh, wait, never mind.” it’s not that it seems OOC, because I’m sure they both live in constant fear of this happening - it’s just such an obvious way of showing us how freaked mulder is that it annoyed me more than anything.

(on to the good...)

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Interesting points! I hope you don't mind engaging in a bit of debate. ;)

As to possible condescension on Mulder's part, I guess that all depends on what you believe his reasons for thinking this way might be. I can buy him assuming that a normal life is what Scully is aiming toward now, because she's certainly behaving very differently from how she was the last time he spent time around her. Also, if there's one cripple to S8 above all others (in my mind), it's that Mulder and Scully clearly aren't talking. About anything. That means assumptions are going to be flying around worse than ever, and when so much other crap is going on, that's going to make a mess even messier.

And now mulder thinks, ‘well but she’s a MOTHER now, so she’ll have all sorts of MOTHER priorities that I’ll have to fit myself to. Argh.
I didn't read it that way at all. I read it as "what was required" is yet another assumption on Mulder's part, simply because, again, Scully isn't talking, and he has no idea what else to do. If Mulder strikes me as anything once he's come back, it's "at a loss", to put it lightly. What now? No one has any answers for him, even Scully, which I think both confuses and angers him, and again he has nowhere to go with these emotions. So, I can buy him clamming up and behaving in a way that he thinks Scully might expect or want him to, and I don't think her being pregnant really has anything to do with that.

As to Mulder knowing Scully is pregnant... that's honestly one of the only two problems I have with "Parabiosis", much as I adore it. I don't buy that Mulder would ever willingly walk into that light, knowing he was about to be abducted (all I can ever respond to that with is "Why, why, WHY?"), and I don't buy that Mulder could somehow magically know that Scully is pregnant. How could he? As far as he or Scully know, it's just not possible. Not only that, but supposedly they've already attempted to get around her assumed infertility via IVF, which also didn't take. I see Mulder as an inherently hopeful person, but that doesn't necessarily mean he believes in the impossible just for the hell of it. It feels very much to me like something they both believed to have closed the door on, until Scully's revelation at the end of "Requiem". YMMV on all of this, obviously.

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I agree with Zellie. Mulder by season 7 was more focused on Scully's happiness than the quest. It was still important, but so is Scully, if not more so.

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wendelah1

As to Mulder knowing Scully is pregnant... that's honestly one of the only two problems I have with "Parabiosis", much as I adore it. I don't buy that Mulder would ever willingly walk into that light, knowing he was about to be abducted (all I can ever respond to that with is "Why, why, WHY?"), and I don't buy that Mulder could somehow magically know that Scully is pregnant. How could he? As far as he or Scully know, it's just not possible. Not only that, but supposedly they've already attempted to get around her assumed infertility via IVF, which also didn't take. I see Mulder as an inherently hopeful person, but that doesn't necessarily mean he believes in the impossible just for the hell of it. It feels very much to me like something they both believed to have closed the door on, until Scully's revelation at the end of "Requiem".

It feels really odd to be defending this fic to you instead of the other way around. The ending is one of the things I like best about the story. The first time I read "Parabiosis" and was able to finish it, I had the same exact reaction. I didn't believe that Mulder could have walked willingly into that circle, especially if he suspected Scully was pregnant.

So I did it. I re-watched Requiem, and then re-read the ending of "Parabiosis." I think that what is happening at the end isn't that Mulder is willing to go. He was trapped, just like I remember, from seeing the episode the first time. What he is feeling both in the episode and in the story, when he steps toward the gathering of abductees in the clearing, I believe, is resignation. That this is his Fate, his destiny, and he is going forward, with hope and courage, into his future, whatever it may hold for him.

I didn't cry the first time I watched Requiem. I was too shocked, I suppose. I didn't cry the first time I read the ending of "Parabiosis," either, I guess my anger kept me from feeling the sadness. I did cry when I watched the second time, because of knowing the eventual outcome, and because, for me, the show I loved really ended there, with Mulder's abduction. I can see now how the ending to "Parabiosis" fits into the ending of Requiem and complements it perfectly. Yeah, I thought it was great.

As far as why Mulder would just know that Scully was pregnant, he has hunches all of the time, about things far less believable than whether or not a supposedly infertile woman could conceive. Why couldn't he have a hunch about that? We know that Mulder and Scully tried to have a child using IVF but "Parabiosis" was written and posted well before Per Manum aired. The way I read it, Penumbra sees Mulder as wondering if Scully's contact with the alien ship might have affected her fertility. Penumbra even has Mulder asking whether or not they need to use birth control, since Scully is still having her menses (not possible without taking hormones, by the way, IMHO, if she truly had no ova). I think this works fine for the story as a whole, and for her characterizations of Mulder and Scully. That it might contradict canon now doesn't detract from the power of the story.

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You know, it's funny, but you've reminded me of exactly how I viewed that scene in Requiem -- I see resignation to fate, Mulder coming back to his typical belief of not deserving what he truly wants (to be with Scully, among other things) and having to accept that, and so on. The thing is, that's something that's never resonated with me while reading the end of "Parabiosis". I wish it would, because that way I could reconcile it with canon, but no matter how many times I reread it (and given that I love it, that's been many times), it just doesn't line up for me.

And now that you remind me of the ship theory from Amor Fati (the very theory I subscribe to, even!), I suppose it isn't such a great leap after all. At least, not in the context of "Parabiosis". In the context of this story and S8, once we learn of the fact that the events of Per Manum did indeed take place... I find it harder to reconcile. I suppose because, I can see Mulder second guessing his theory once they're led to believe that the IVF doesn't take (since they don't find out, until she's already pregnant, that they were likely lied to by Parenti and co.).

I think this works fine for the story as a whole, and for her characterizations of Mulder and Scully. That it might contradict canon now doesn't detract from the power of the story.
Yes, agreed, and thanks for bringing me around there. I think I was confusing my reading of this story and S8 on the whole (for which I can't reconcile the leap) with my original reading of "Parabiosis", where it does work.

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wendelah1

I think that the opposite idea, that Mulder found it nearly impossible to believe that Scully could have conceived naturally, fits perfectly into this story, which takes off from Three Words and eighth season canon.

Also, if there's one cripple to S8 above all others (in my mind), it's that Mulder and Scully clearly aren't talking. About anything. That means assumptions are going to be flying around worse than ever, and when so much other crap is going on, that's going to make a mess even.

They aren't talking but then talking never was their strong suit, was it?

If Mulder strikes me as anything once he's come back, it's "at a loss", to put it lightly. What now? No one has any answers for him, even Scully, which I think both confuses and angers him, and again he has nowhere to go with these emotions. So, I can buy him clamming up and behaving in a way that he thinks Scully might expect or want him to, and I don't think her being pregnant really has anything to do with that.

Actually, I think her pregnancy has a great deal to do with how confused and alienated he feels. She has changed dramatically in the time he has been gone, and not just physically. I think it has been argued that the Scully of that season is barely recognizable as the same character, and I think the pregnancy and everything it symbolizes is responsible for that. This is not a normal pregnancy. Imagine how out of control it feels to have a separate being taking over your body, changing it, using it. Trust me, it feels pretty invasive, even if entered into willingly. This was an unplanned, supposedly impossible pregnancy, so you can take the loss of control and magnify it one hundred fold. Scully seems infinitely more vulnerable than Mulder has ever seen her. Mulder has no idea what's going on. Is it his? Is it even hers? Is it even human? It's the elephant in the room and no one is talking about it, which only goes towards creating more distance between them and anxiety for both of them.

I think the writers here do a great job of getting into Mulder's head: about the pregnancy, his abduction and its aftermath, and the events of Three Words.

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As I mention in the above comment, that I do agree with. At that point, given the pieces of the overall picture that he has, I think he'd have to believe it wasn't natural.

Talking never was their strong suit, no, but there's a very marked difference between the brand of communication that exists between Mulder and Scully in S1-S7 vs. S8 and S9. Sure, the truth is that the writing has just taken a nosedive overall, but since that's canon as it's presented to us, I have to mark that difference, whether I like it or not, as significant.

I do think the pregnancy is a factor (which is why I probably should have edited that comment when I looked back on it and felt that doesn't "have anything to do with it" didn't really articulate what I meant). And a major one, even. I just don't feel that it's the only one, and that Mulder is reacting to Scully as he is only because of the pregnancy, which was what

amyhit seemed to be implying, though I could have misread that. I think that oversimplifies both of their situations at this time.

I do think the writers do a great job, definitely. I just read another story of Zuffy's that tackled the mess that is S8 ("Hieroglyphs of Memory") and it pretty much blew my mind with how successful and engaging it was.

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wendelah1

I just read another story of Zuffy's that tackled the mess that is S8 ("Hieroglyphs of Memory") and it pretty much blew my mind with how successful and engaging it was.

Maybe we should add that to the reading list, then?

I don't think it's the only reason either, but I also don't think it should ever be underestimated. If Scully wasn't pregnant maybe she would have pressed harder to find Mulder. She seems so passive during that whole season, which really annoyed me. Can you imagine season seven Scully putting up with Doggett's crap? She'd have eaten him alive. Instead of crumpling into a widdle ball when Mulder says "I don't know how I fit in here," she'd have told him (and shown him *cough*).

Yeah, of course you have to blame the writing but as you say, it is canon and so I have to try to make sense of it. The major changes in Scully's life in season eight are (1.) Mulder's abduction, death and whatever you want to call the coming back from the dead thing he did and (2.) her pregnancy. If it was just about losing Mulder, you'd think she'd be getting back to herself once he came back but she never does. Grrr. Another reason to hate season eight.

Parenthood is often a make or break for relationships and it certainly does end up coming between them by the beginning of the (hated by me) season nine opener.

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Oh, definitely! I think the synopsis would probably appeal to you. ;) ("Mulder didn't forget his sister, Scully knows whose baby it is, Maggie still cares about her daughter, and the brain disease makes sense after all. This story is for anyone who has gnashed their teeth at the inexplicable holes in Season 8.")

Oh, I don't mean to underestimate it, certainly. I just felt that saying "Mulder's condescending to Scully because she's pregnant" didn't fly with me.

Can you imagine season seven Scully putting up with Doggett's crap? She'd have eaten him alive. Instead of crumpling into a widdle ball when Mulder says "I don't know how I fit in here," she'd have told him (and shown him *cough*).
All I can do is agree vehemently with all of that, heh. Definitely.

Oh, I hate the S9 opener too. It damages both characters so much. "He's just gone." Yeah, thanks. That doesn't jive with the Mulder I know (or the Scully), sorry.

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wendelah1,

leucocrystal -- both of you have really taken off with this conversation and made some really good arguments/points on both sides.

zellie, when you originally brought up the difficulty you had with mulder going to his abduction in Requiem, and said you didn;t think he would ever have gone had he known of scully's pregnancy, i admit i was genuinely stumped. you had me. i KNEW what i felt/believed to be true, but when i tried to fit it together i wasn't sure that i wasn't wrong about him knowing. but then Wen came along and said this:

What he is feeling both in the episode and in the story, when he steps toward the gathering of abductees in the clearing, I believe, is resignation. That this is his Fate, his destiny, and he is going forward, with hope and courage, into his future, whatever it may hold for him.

that pretty much sums it up. and i think there is a sense of his wonder, that it has come to this, after all, which makes it appear that he is eager to go aboard, when really it's something else - fate, in a sense, destiny, and the understanding of destiny in the moment that it begins to become reality.

also, this, which is at the very heart of why everything after S7 in canon makes my insides hurt:

They aren't talking but then talking never was their strong suit, was it?

because everyone is always saying that they weren't talking and that it was eating them up inside, or just confusing them all the more (however you want to put it - it is a common argument in canon & in fanfic) yet it seems to me that the way mulder and scully have learned to cope with all of the horrific and complicated situations they face is by not talking. they come to their own terms, and there is a question as to whether they somehow sense exactly how they must adapt in order to fit with the other, or if the natural product of their adaptation simply fits well with the other's. either way, over the years they seem to fare remarkable well without directly addressing many of the problems that plague them.

"Mulder's condescending to Scully because she's pregnant" didn't fly with me.

no, no - the part where i said i felt mulder was being condescending was the part where he thought she was leaving the x-files to go have 'a normal life'. and then he says that at one time she had understood that wasn't going to be possible for either of them, but it seems she's forgotten.

i did disapprove of how this fic (and canon) seemed to have mulder behaving in regards to scully's pregnancy. but i don't think he wasn't condescending to her about the pregnancy - just - in the case of this fic - about her sense of loyalty to the work, and about her understanding of the situation.

finally,

wendelah1, almost everything you've said in this comments thread seems very true, about this fic and about the characters in canon. a week ago i wouldn't have known why i felt so distanced from all of it. but at this point i realize it's because as of S7 i pretty much stop paying any attention to canon, as it pertains to characterization. i may follow the events that happen on the screen, but i then rework the implications of those events entirely.

so yes, i think this fic does a wonderful job of enriching canon. my qualms with it are entirely my own, and are not it's problem in the least.

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when i said this: but i don't think he wasn't condescending to her about the pregnancy, i meant 'was' not not 'wasn't'.

i'd edit, but then i'd have to re-bold and italicize everything

From:

wendelah1

yet it seems to me that the way mulder and scully have learned to cope with all of the horrific and complicated situations they face is by not talking. they come to their own terms, and there is a question as to whether they somehow sense exactly how they must adapt in order to fit with the other, or if the natural product of their adaptation simply fits well with the other's. either way, over the years they seem to fare remarkable well without directly addressing many of the problems that plague them.

Do they fare all that well? I would say that's up for debate. But I don't think they talk less in season eight exactly, it's more that the personal stakes have gotten so much higher, and that both Mulder and Scully have been traumatized beyond belief. A little more talking might have been helpful along the way, but I can't say how much. They seem very disconnected just when they need to be getting their acts together. But I'm more than willing to blame all of that on the series writers.

but at this point i realize it's because as of S7 i pretty much stop paying any attention to canon, as it pertains to characterization. i may follow the events that happen on the screen, but i then rework the implications of those events entirely.

Honestly, I do my best to pretend that everything from Requiem on never happened. Obviously for the purposes of reading season 8 fic, this little quirk of mine has been set aside. For now.

i think this fic does a wonderful job of enriching canon. I agree. Now I just need to figure out what to post next.

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wendelah1

this bothers me the most, probably, of anything in the fic. I don’t believe that scully was leaving work for a normal life (and if she was, then I don’t want to know, frankly) and I also don't think that mulder would be that cynical in how he thought of her.

I understand all of your objections. I'd rather not believe they ever tried for a kid at all. I liked them as partners not lovers/prospective parents. But this is canon, so unless we write AU, we are stuck with it. Zuffy is a canon compliant writer, I don't know Littljoe's work but I'd imagine she is too. So while we know how it all turned out, Mulder doesn't yet and so I don't think it unreasonable for him to think that Scully has changed. She looks different. She has a new partner. They aren't talking, about the baby, about what her plans are. You would think they might have discussed this when they were trying for a kid together, but maybe not.

It’s almost condescending of him to think this way, and I can take a lot from mulder, but condescension is not something that suits him.

He is angry at her, at Skinner, at the world for going on without him, isn't he? When I re-watched the episode Three Words after reading the fic, there was one scene that stood out in particular. It's scene seven where Skinner and Scully tell Mulder that his request to return to the X-Files has been denied and that Scully's new partner, Agent Doggett is going to be running them after Scully leaves. He intimates that Kersh is part of the larger conspiracy, and perhaps so is John Doggett. Scully defends Doggett.

SCULLY: Agent Doggett is above reproach, Mulder. He's being maneuvered just like you.

MULDER: Well, good. At least he's maneuverable.

Maybe I'm wrong and am misinterpreting the line, but I took that at least in part as a comment on Scully's lack of maneuverability due to her advanced state of pregnancy. From the look on her face after he said it, I think she did, too. I thought that was pretty condescending and even a bit cruel. I didn't like it one bit but it's canon.

Anyway, for better or worse, I think the story takes a realistic approach to the Mulder and Scully we meet in season eight, and gives Mulder a believable emotional journey.

And now mulder thinks, ‘well but she’s a MOTHER now, so she’ll have all sorts of MOTHER priorities that I’ll have to fit myself to. Argh.

Their relationship changed irrevocably as soon as he agreed to father her child. People do have expectations of one another as parents, as life partners, so I think is not unnatural for Scully to have certain expectations of him at this point. He may not be certain it's his kid but Scully is even if she hasn't said so in so many words. I have to assume they talked about what they would do in the event that the IVF had worked. Well, maybe not. That whole plot line so annoys me, I can hardly think straight, let alone type.

Besides, I tend to take the ‘Parabiosos’ approach to the pregnancy story line, in thinking that mulder kind of knew. Or that even if he didn’t know in words, something in him felt that scully was pregnant. So that waking up and finding her pregnant was sort of like remembering something that happened in a dream - you already knew, but you’d buried it again.

I think Penumbra does a great job of making that a reality in her fic. It works well in "Parabiosis." But I don't think that season eight Mulder acts like he knew, or that he is waking from a dream, I think he acts shocked and clueless and even hurtful, without meaning to, perhaps, but I think those feelings and actions are there. I think this fic reflects those feelings and actions. Is Mulder in season eight different from Mulder in seasons one through seven. I think he is, in some ways, at least. How could he not be, given what he's been through?

From:

wendelah1

At the very beginning of the episode, we see what I believe is Mulder's true face. He looks lost, even sad, he's having flashbacks, he's clutching a pillow in my memory. Then Scully and his doctor walk into the room and suddenly there is this transformation where we see his public persona take over, where he presents the face that he knows these people expect to see. It is pretty devastating to watch the rest of the episode, knowing that this vulnerability is what lies behind all of his bravado.

He feels dislocated in space and time. When the doctor asks him how he feels, he responds "Like Austin Powers." I think it is this disconnect that is the root cause of the season eight communication glitches between Mulder and Scully, even if the pregnancy is often the focus of them.

I think I'm going to go watch some season one now to clear my brain.

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I just came back here -- I didn't realize you guys were still keeping the discussion going (but yay)!

That scene has always stuck with me pretty strongly, Wendy, so I know exactly what you're talking about. I hope it's all right to post some caps here, just a few of them can illustrate it pretty well:

Ouch. I find them hard to even look at, really. One of the biggest pet peeves of mine with S8 is how just about every storyline regarding Mulder (good and bad, i.e. the brain disease) is simply dropped like a hot potato. Abducted, buried essentially alive then dug back up? Sure, fine, whatever, let's move on to more cases! Ugh. Just... don't get me started, I'll rant all day.

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On the other hand, the doggett characterization seems like the strongest thing in the fic. His voice is marvelously in character, I think, right down to the wording:

“That what you want for her, Mulder?"

“Your life worth living?"

“When were planning to drop it on her? After your head turned to mush?"

he’s blunt, and he drops words that would make his speech more technically correct. He’s a guy who probably spent his twenties thinking ‘street smart’ was what it was all about - he’s not worried about sounding like some dandy who graduated from oxford.

And this exchange between doggett and mulder was, I felt, miles better and more loaded with meaning than anything the show mustered up:

"Look, Knowle and I go way back." Doggett shakes his head. "He's given me too much good stuff."

"Then he's been setting you up for a long time."

"Do you ever listen to yourself? You really think that all these years, my source has been stringing me along on the off-chance that he can get at you? That it? God, Mulder, paranoid doesn't begin to describe you. I thought coming back might have mellowed you out."

"How exactly would being dead make me less paranoid?"

that’s the mulder I want to see - the mulder who just knows how this stuff works - he’s graduated top in his class in conspiracy 101. And doggett questioning him doesn’t make him any less certain. Yes, yes, yes.

And you know what, as negative as I can be about this fic, the above passage, and the following three lines, which address mulder’s mindset expressly, made me feel the whole piece was well worth reading:

He can't remember whether it is spring or fall. – I sleep really strange hours, and sometimes when I wake up I don’t know whether it’s morning or night; anyone who’s ever felt this on a recurring basis knows how freaky and dislocated it feels. I can’t imagine how mulder feels, not even knowing what season it is.

"Hey watch it. That's my good socket wrench."

Mulder continues to turn it in his hand, flexing his wrist and testing it as a weapon. Doggett takes his eyes off the street for a second and grabs it from him. "I changed the plugs," he says, stuffing it under his seat. "That's all it's good for."

Mulder wipes the oiliness against his jeans. "Yeah, I know." His voice is dazed. Daily life is a minefield of things other people know that he doesn't.

that is just the perfect tone for mulder. It’s like on one level he’s this little kid who isn’t even consciously thinking as far as what exactly he could do with the wrench, but really he’s dangerous because he’s so ready to fight off anything, and you think, ‘no, mulder knows exactly what to do with it if need be.’ and the narrative doesn’t sell doggett short, because you can tell that he gets it - that mulder could easily end up in a situation where he was dangerous, just from being so screwed up internally.

And finally, When she was taken so many holes opened in his soul that some days the only thing left standing was his death wish.

It’s so dark, but it almost provoked a nervous laugh from me. I love the irony of it.

i've apparently forgotten html

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wendelah1

My theory is that Doggett was supposed to become the POV of the audience, the way Scully was in season one. The problem is that the viewers are not new to this series, they've seen it all, they already know what's behind doors one, two and three.

I like the exchanges between Mulder and Doggett, too. They do seem better than what the series came up with for the most part. They also make Mulder's willingness at the end of Vienen to hand over the X-Files to Doggett a little more credible.

that is just the perfect tone for mulder. It’s like on one level he’s this little kid who isn’t even consciously thinking as far as what exactly he could do with the wrench, but really he’s dangerous because he’s so ready to fight off anything, and you think, ‘no, mulder knows exactly what to do with it if need be.’ and the narrative doesn’t sell doggett short, because you can tell that he gets it - that mulder could easily end up in a situation where he was dangerous, just from being so screwed up internally.

Yes. He seems pretty on edge to me in this episode. I think the fic does a good job of illuminating that state of mind for the reader.

It’s so dark, but it almost provoked a nervous laugh from me. I love the irony of it.

Can you elaborate for me? I'm feeling confused.

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