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wendelah1 and I were considering going on a brief hiatus. Then I mentioned I'd been thinking about rereading "Khyber vs. Season Seven," and Wendelah suggested we read it here, rather than going on hiatus. So for the next month we're going to be kicking back, relishing the end of summer, sipping imaginary iced tea (or real iced tea (it could be love)), and reading KvsS7 at a pace that is decidedly not breakneck.
For those of you who don't know, KvsS7 is a series of ten stories written by Khyber, the majority of which are set in S7. Most of these stories are vignettes, though there are a couple of longer fics, and they all take place in the same slightly alternate universe. Khyber's aim was (among other things) to craft a retelling of S7 by replacing some episodes and adding onto others, so that in theory a reader could watch S7, intersperse it with his KvsS7 instalments, and wind up with a finished product that functioned as a successful alternate outcome for the season (and perhaps for the entire series). Sadly he never finished the KvsS7 project, but even unfinished the KvsS7 stories are complex, intelligent, and often strikingly intense. They feature a Mulder and Scully who are in character yet subtly different from canon, and a story universe that is written with a level of stunning realism TXF rarely attempted to achieve.
We're going to start with the vignettes "Collapsar" and "Weret-Hekau," which are post eps for Millennium and Theef. In approximately five days we'll post again, and continue to post at about that pace until we've covered all ten fics. This does not mean discussion on the previously posted fics must stop, it's just for the sake of organization.
KvsS7 was a weighty concept and a remarkable project, and the resulting fics are sometimes lovely, sometimes horrifying, and often breathtaking. I hope you'll give this fic universe a try, and tell us your thoughts and opinions. This is definitely the sort of fanfic to provoke thoughts and opinions.
1. Collapsar (post Millennium)
2. Weret-Hekau (post Theef)
ETA: I just now realized we actually have covered "Collapsar" here before, about two years ago, as some readers may remember. I even participated in the discussion. Memory fail, amyhit. I'm not going to link you to that discussion, since we're going to be reading the whole thing through this time, and I think it would be nice to get some fresh comments, if we can, without anyone feeling daunted by the prospect of repeating something someone else said back in 2009. However, I'm sure anyone who is interested will be able to find the post in question with a few clicks of a mouse.
wendelah1 and I were considering going on a brief hiatus. Then I mentioned I'd been thinking about rereading "Khyber vs. Season Seven," and Wendelah suggested we read it here, rather than going on hiatus. So for the next month we're going to be kicking back, relishing the end of summer, sipping imaginary iced tea (or real iced tea (it could be love)), and reading KvsS7 at a pace that is decidedly not breakneck. For those of you who don't know, KvsS7 is a series of ten stories written by Khyber, the majority of which are set in S7. Most of these stories are vignettes, though there are a couple of longer fics, and they all take place in the same slightly alternate universe. Khyber's aim was (among other things) to craft a retelling of S7 by replacing some episodes and adding onto others, so that in theory a reader could watch S7, intersperse it with his KvsS7 instalments, and wind up with a finished product that functioned as a successful alternate outcome for the season (and perhaps for the entire series). Sadly he never finished the KvsS7 project, but even unfinished the KvsS7 stories are complex, intelligent, and often strikingly intense. They feature a Mulder and Scully who are in character yet subtly different from canon, and a story universe that is written with a level of stunning realism TXF rarely attempted to achieve.
We're going to start with the vignettes "Collapsar" and "Weret-Hekau," which are post eps for Millennium and Theef. In approximately five days we'll post again, and continue to post at about that pace until we've covered all ten fics. This does not mean discussion on the previously posted fics must stop, it's just for the sake of organization.
KvsS7 was a weighty concept and a remarkable project, and the resulting fics are sometimes lovely, sometimes horrifying, and often breathtaking. I hope you'll give this fic universe a try, and tell us your thoughts and opinions. This is definitely the sort of fanfic to provoke thoughts and opinions.
1. Collapsar (post Millennium)
2. Weret-Hekau (post Theef)
ETA: I just now realized we actually have covered "Collapsar" here before, about two years ago, as some readers may remember. I even participated in the discussion. Memory fail, amyhit. I'm not going to link you to that discussion, since we're going to be reading the whole thing through this time, and I think it would be nice to get some fresh comments, if we can, without anyone feeling daunted by the prospect of repeating something someone else said back in 2009. However, I'm sure anyone who is interested will be able to find the post in question with a few clicks of a mouse.
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no subject
Date: 2011-08-22 02:13 am (UTC)I just read both stories and I need to stew on them for a bit before I comment in more depth, so I'll be back tomorrow, pinky swear! I'm curious to read everyone's reactions to these, "Collapsar" in particular.
Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-22 10:24 am (UTC)When all stellar energy sources are exhausted, the star will undergo a gravitational collapse.
There is a feeling of things running down here, a kind of frustrated-energy-going-nowhere (fits with the title--and I love that Scully's physics-undergrad mind went that way). To me it feels like there is a certain tiredness between M & S in this story--and to be honest that is a feeling I always had about "Millennium". I know a lot of people liked it and heralded it as a kind of new and exciting move in the relationship, but for me it's always been a sad episode, a reflection on what Frank Black's lost in his search in the truth, and by mirror how much Mulder and Scully have struggled and lost in their own lives, and how much loss they still have to come. One kiss doesn't solve things. One kiss doesn't make anything better.
I don't know, maybe I just don't like New Year's Eve ;).
Collapsar is dark, I think, but it feels honest. I like Scully's interior monologue at the start--I can see her being frustrated and pissed off. I loved this line:
She needed that, him to be either stupid
or coy, otherwise her fragile and sparking wave of anger would just
dash itself up and dissipate.
It does ring true to me in terms of what I see as their relationship--there will always be these problems between them, there will always be pieces that they are trying to stitch together that won't fit or will always keep pulling back. Strangely, I find this kind of story--acknowledging a lot of the true disappointments and difficulties in their relationship--a lot more acceptable as a romantic story than a lot of relationshippy fic.
The ending is abrupt and awkward--I really liked the way it was written. The energy sources are exhausted, the scene collapses.
Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-30 11:49 pm (UTC)Thank you for the definition of collapsar. It does fit with the title and Scully's physics background. Khyber is so smart--which helps when you are writing people as intelligent as these characters are. People can't help being average, but at the risk of sounding like an elitist, it really shows when you're writing fic for this fandom.
To me it feels like there is a certain tiredness between M & S in this story--and to be honest that is a feeling I always had about "Millennium". I know a lot of people liked it and heralded it as a kind of new and exciting move in the relationship, but for me it's always been a sad episode, a reflection on what Frank Black's lost in his search in the truth, and by mirror how much Mulder and Scully have struggled and lost in their own lives, and how much loss they still have to come. One kiss doesn't solve things. One kiss doesn't make anything better.
Our difference of opinion about this fic probably stems from how we feel about the episode. I agree, it's a dark episode, though more because of Frank Black than M&S. And it does have a happy ending, for Black and Mulder and Scully and all of creation, if you believe they just staved off the end times for...another time tba. The kiss just seemed like a kiss to me, nothing more and nothing less. I know it must of been a big deal back in the day but it didn't even seem terribly sexy to my eyes. So, yeah, it didn't solve anything, but I never got the impression it was meant to.
So my problem with this story is that Scully's reaction seems all out of proportion to the event itself, even if one factors in a preexisting sexual relationship between them. It just doesn't make any sense to me that she would blow up at him. He was wounded, he's got a sling on, he nearly died for pity's sake and she's all in his face for what's seems under the circumstances a very trivial matter. So I have a hard time believing in it, and I don't think it flows naturally from the episode.
But seeing it through the lens of knowing all of their losses--of Mulder's abduction, of William, and finally their homes and their jobs and everything else that is to follow-- well, yeah, very dark indeed.
It would be great to know where Khyber intended this storyline to go, since it's a au for season seven. He did come back once after a long time away. Maybe he'll be back again someday.
Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-09-04 04:29 am (UTC)Fraught, pretty much.
(I was coming right back here to comment on Weret-Hekau. Ah well, I will just continue on, two posts behind everyone else. :)
Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-09-04 04:38 am (UTC)Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-09-04 04:43 am (UTC)I'm afraid you're probably right.
Speaking of fraught, are you reading Prufrock's new sequel to "The Thirteenth Sign"?
Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-09-04 04:54 am (UTC)Wow, it's been a long time since I read anything on ephemeral.
Re: Collapsar
Date: 2011-09-04 05:02 am (UTC)Oh. I heard about it from
1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-23 12:04 am (UTC)But anyway, what I find most interesting about Collapsar is that it works for me in the context of this universe, but it wouldn't work for me if this were the canon XF universe.
"If there is anything between us... more between us, it doesn't
happen because it's New Year's Eve." Her voice stumbles over
itself slightly, faster than she would normally speak. "It doesn't
happen when we're nearly dead. It doesn't happen when you think
'gee, I should kiss Scully'. It doesn't happen when there's nothing
else more interesting going on."
In a universe where they've been sexually intimate with each other for years, in the dark, desperate way we later learn of - but also haven't been intimate with each other recently - for Mulder to just decide all on his own to suddenly breach the divide again and commit them both, with nothing more than this weak little gesture, would be a foolish mistake.
Yet I actually quite like the New Year’s kiss as it stands in canon. It could've been handled better, but it isn't bad. In canon it functions as more of a symbolic gesture than an actual kiss. It's a way of taking a step, establishing the possibility for the kind of intimacy they've so long denied themselves, without putting any more pressure on the issue.
In canon, the smallness of the gesture makes it respectful. In the KvsS7 universe the smallness of the gesture makes it seem somewhat disrespectful, dismissive of what's between them.
"Scully," he says. It's the voice to the tenth power, sounding
as though he's come from full moon woods with blood on his hands
and a year with the wolves.
Favorite line of the fic. I do wish Khyber would've indulged his poetic streak more. I do like that he focused on plot and action and things outwardly apparent more than most authors who show poetic inclinations are wont to do. But my favorite parts of his fics are almost always when the writing gets this way - poetry electrified.
Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-27 02:00 pm (UTC)I just watched Millennium. It's not a cheesy gesture, it's a simple, closed mouth, tentative, sweet little kiss. It's not committing them to anything. It's not even very sexy, at least not the way I read it. It seems affectionate. I remember reading this scene the first time around, and thinking, oh, so they've had sex before, oh, okay. But now I can't give her a pass on that either.
So what is her problem? Is it that Mulder didn't get close enough to dying this time around to justify her wanting to jump his bones? I don't think Khyber likes Agent Scully very much here, not until the very end, when he reveals just how fucked up she really is. She claims she loves Mulder but she's not acting in a very loving way, is she? The guy has a sling on. He's in pain. He's on drugs for that pain and she shows up at his door and starts haranguing him, and for what? And then she kisses him, for real, just to taunt him! Finally, by the end she realizes she crossed a line. You don't treat a friend like that, let alone a wounded partner. If this is really how people saw her while the series was on, I can see why some people were pissed off at her every week.
Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-28 05:20 pm (UTC)Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-28 10:12 pm (UTC)Yeah, but you really can't judge her reaction in this universe using canon as a baseline. Change one thing and you change everything, however profoundly or slightly. Their relationship is not now, and has long since diverged from MSR as we know it in canon. It's similar enough that it's compellingly recognizable, but it's still different in a pretty fundamental way.
So what is her problem?
I think it's expressed pretty clearly in this passage:
"You do not get to do this, Mulder. You are not allowed
to decide how this is going to happen. Not like everything else."
"What do you mean?"
"This has never been an equal partnership, Mulder. The where, the
what, the when, it's always been up to you. "
And in this passage:
I've cleaned blood off you, I've cleaned puke off you, I've fucking
shot you, I've fucked you and not just once, you think you can just pull
out the Times Square ball and suddenly my knees will go weak? Are you
just saving me for a spare moment, after all this time? No! Damn you! I
am not going to apologise for not playing along when that's all you
think I am worth. I'd be less pissed at you if you had just pulled
out a ring.
In this universe there is no clear, uncrossed line or even a semi-clear territory between their sexual and romantic feelings for each other and their professional relationship. Sex is something desperate and consuming between them, but afterwards they 'turn away from each other to get dressed', and they don't talk about it. Sex has long been something charged, almost terrible between them (even when it's also what they need). So for Mulder to suddenly pull a "cheesy, office-party move" on Scully, completely out of the blue, like he can just decide to "go with the moment," when that's a decision that concerns both of them...well, I can absolutely see Mulder doing this kind of thing, but I can also understand why Scully reacts how she does. He's broken the unspoken, torturous but self-preservationist rules they've been living by for years. Years.
And then she kisses him, for real, just to taunt him!
But it's not just to taunt him at all. Hence the reason why she breaks off the kiss (despite how much "the bad things in her" what her to keep going), and she apologizes immediately:
"Mulder, Mulder, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, that's... I'm not
helping... that's not what I meant...
She kisses him, in part, because he's "called her bluff". She tells him, in a less than effective manner, what her problem with the kiss is, and he asks her (in a deliberately alluring tone) how she'd like such an encounter to go. She doesn't know what to say, because it's pretty freaking complicated between them, so she kisses him, as if to show him how, but also because she is off balance that night, and she wants him. Only she has to fight very, very hard to keep from falling back into the same fuck-and-compartmentalize pattern they've always followed:
I know he wants to put his good arm around me, pull me in so our
bodies press together. His bare chest will touch me, and his
fingers will brush on the skin of my lower back where my top is
pulled up. If those things happen I'm doomed, and this dark night
goes down with the others.
As I see it, what Scully wants is something good between them. Something sweet and tender and not born entirely of unhealthy codependency, but also something that is mindful of their past - that doesn't seem dismissive of their relationship, though it's been dark and consuming. And whatever's between them, if it's to be good, has to be entered into by both of them equally. Neither one can just decide to start without the other.
Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-28 11:39 pm (UTC)Neither one can just decide to start without the other.
In my experience, someone always makes the first move. YMMV.
Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-31 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2011-08-31 07:00 pm (UTC)I have to say, I think you're right about that. I knew from the beginning that there would be a New Year's kiss in S7, and that it would be brief and sweet and, yes, bloodless, so I never had any other expectations, and the way I conceptualized it in my mind made it feel right. (I did this with the help of much fanfic, naturally. *g*)
But if I'd been watching the show at the time, and waiting and hoping that the ship would develop, I know I would have been very upset with that dismissive little stunt CC turned it into. Scully's-reaction-in-Collapsar levels of upset, at least.
It was his curse, that ship, and he went down with it.
This. Is. So. Wonderful.
RE: Re: 1. Collapsar
Date: 2016-12-25 08:22 pm (UTC)And yeah, this:
It was his curse, that ship, and he went down with it.
So so good. I like the darkness of Collapsar. I also like Amyhit's examination of it. I haven't read KvsS7 yet but I'm sure looking forward to it!
2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-23 12:15 am (UTC)Ahh, he knows this look, jeans and fresh face and
sneakers and ruffled hair. It's not a common one, and he
generally only gets to see it on days when she's put
keeping herself together ahead of putting herself together.
He'd seen it for better reasons a couple of mornings, a
couple of years ago, misses it suddenly and desperately.
I do like how ambiguous that aspect, their already established sexual relationship - which kind of turns out to be the central point of the whole AU - remains for the first several fics. We only learn about it through Mulder and Scully's thoughts, which do not tend towards long coherent expository monologues in Khyber's fics, so the information we get is naturally quite fragmented.
I like Weret-Hekau because it does what the episode should have done, what the series should have done, and could have done so many times, but never did. It actually grounds the MoTW. It grounds it with Mulder and Scully, and in doing so, it also gives it a feeling of weight and realism in and of itself. In this universe, Scully getting hexed isn't just a plot device to create momentary tension, which we then forget about the moment that tension is no longer needed. Scully gets hexed, and that hex gets broken, and it means something. It means something to her, and to Mulder, and to the shopkeeper for whom magic is very real.
That's enough to make it real for me, at least within the realm of this universe. Weret-Hekau makes magic feel real. I so wish TXF canon could have made more things feel real that way.
I also like the little tie-ins. The shopkeeper turning up the Lovers card harkens back to Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose, Scully's alleged imperviousness to bad mojo makes me wonder whether that ties in to her alleged immortality, the shopkeeper's offhanded remark about Scully's son brings up questions of her alleged infertility (was it just an offhand remark, or did the women really foretell that Scully would have a son? was Scully wondering the same thing, in that brief moment before she turned and left the shop?) and Mulder even thinks Ah, a practiced speech. He almost only ever gets to hear the first line of these which reminds me of Collapsar, in which Scully had little luck in sticking to the speech she'd been planning, true to Mulder's assessment of her.
"I just need you to, uh, keep it safe."
He reaches into the bag, takes out the soft package. We're casting
a spell, he tells himself. We're throwing a big ol' half-, maybe
three-quarters-believed-better-safe-than-sorry invisible pentacle
around Scully.
Favorite line of the fic. I feel genuinely pained for Scully, even though this is a good thing that's happening, because it's so intimate, and it acknowledges how dangerous it is to be her. Proud and brave as she is, she is acknowledging that she could probably use some added protection, even if it comes from a source she doesn't (want to) believe in.
One thing I really dislike is that Scully is referred to as 'Dana' while she's alone. This is one of those 'divided camps' situations, and I'm in the Scully camp, all the way. I think by S7 she thinks of herself as Scully.
Overall: I feel like it's a gift and a curse of many of Khyber's fics that their compound effect is often what makes them really excellent. If not the compound effect of a number of fics considered together, then the compound effect of the fic as it develops, each little piece adding onto the last, until you're getting a sense of the big picture and the inimate moment at the same time. On its own I like but don't love Weret-Hekau. These vignettes are too short. By the time I start to get truly interested, the fic ends. Fortunately, 'How Gravity Works...' is almost twice as long, and then we start getting into the real meat of the story with ‘Home From the War’.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-23 01:29 am (UTC)Weret-Hekau makes magic feel real.
Yes! This is what I like best about this vignette. The magic in the shop, the magic in Mulder's doorway. It's real and you're right: it does mean something and they all know it.
"Wow. This is powerful stuff, girly-girl." The younger woman's face
clouded over even more, her jaw setting hard. "Sorry. That's bad,
right? I got a flash there. Happens."
A spooky little tie-in to Orison. I heard Pfaster's voice as soon as I read this. Makes me think the reference to Scully's son is more than just a random observation but instead an actual foretelling.
The scene between Mulder and Scully felt so powerful to me. They are both so careful with each other here, it's almost heart-breaking. Your favorite line is mine as well.
I'm pretty new to Khyber's work, so I can't speak to the compound effect, but I am glad to hear that there is one. I like this story much better than Collapsar, but maybe my opinion will change once I read more of the series.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-25 09:05 pm (UTC)Me too.
Collapsar is a tough one, for me, because I tend to have a bit of an idealist streak that finds the MSR (such as it is) in Collapsar kind of off-putting. Personally I've always found Khyber's characterizations magnificent when under adversity, though not always to my taste when there's nothing for them to fight.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-28 05:25 pm (UTC)Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-27 06:26 pm (UTC)I do think this works as a stand-alone post-ep for Weret-Hakau so I can't complain about the length. I think both the writer and Mulder (standing in for Khyber?) are a wee bit condescending in this story toward Scully, which I admit ticks me off.
I think the ambiguity about their sexual relationship is a tease but it certainly works to keep the reader interested--at least it did with me.
One thing I really dislike is that Scully is referred to as 'Dana' while she's alone. This is one of those 'divided camps' situations, and I'm in the Scully camp, all the way. I think by S7 she thinks of herself as Scully.
I'm in the "Dana" camp. The idea that she would think of herself as "Scully" just because that's what Mulder calls her (except when he doesn't...) is very annoying to me. It's more than annoying, it's horrible! Dana is her name. My son calls me "Mom," and my husband calls me "Honey" and my mom calls me by my sister's name half the time and by her sister's name the rest of the time. Even though I'm careful to introduce myself, my patients all just call me "Nurse." But dammit, I'm still Wendy. When people take her name away, it's just one more thing she's lost and that's too much to bear. That at least Khyber gets right here.
Edit: LJ is behaving badly so half of this comment(!) got posted twice. I deleted the one with the half missing.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-28 10:13 pm (UTC)It's all a bit OT at this point, but you said an idea I posted as my own was annoying and horrible. I respect your right to have strong opinions, just as I have, but I feel in fairness I should get to speak my case.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-08-29 12:05 am (UTC)I rarely hear anyone defend a writer's decision to use Scully's given name. More often I hear people complain about it, and even refuse to read a story because of that choice. And I think it's a valid one for a writer to make. I apologize for expressing my opinions in such careless language. I was wrong.
I think people (and many, many fanfics) equate Scully's occasionally expressed desire to have more of a "life" with her having some deep-seated longing to be seen and appreciated as 'Dana', but canon never suggests Scully feels a connection between her first name and her fundamental identity.
I don't even know what to say to that. To me, being identified with one's first name seems pretty fundamental so it doesn't need support from canon. And Dana is the only name she has that is hers and hers alone.
Scully is her dad's surname, which was given to her because her parents were married and her mother gave up her "maiden name" and took his. Women's last names in our patriarchal society are so problematic that to suggest that Scully doesn't lose something by giving up her first name is a pretty charged idea for me. I can't change that. I don't even want to. It goes to my core belief system, even to my values.
This must be a very old style feminist reaction, but perhaps that explains better why I feel the way I do. There are more layers to this, layers that have to do with my out-of-fashion notion of what "being on a first name basis" with someone means, a concept that has less and less meaning all of the time.
Re: 2. Weret-Hekau
Date: 2011-09-04 04:38 am (UTC)I like that about this fic and I think the characterization of Scully flows, in a way, from Collapsar. There has been a fundamental change in her by this season; some of her barriers are breaking, for better or for worse. She's more open and more fluid, and more prepared to accept things without fully understanding them.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-31 07:17 pm (UTC)I'll admit I can't keep the season 7 stuff clear in my head. Jigsaw puzzles aren't my forte.
I'm a life-long reader of fantasy fiction--a field more varied than many people know--and I've often said that the challenge of fantasy is not original plot-making or world-building or whatever fannish term is up for discussion. It's simply that the fantastical as subject requires fantastical language, and that takes a LOT OF TALENT. W talked about the average and those who are obviously far above, like Khyber. The same holds for bff's (big fat fantasies, often in many volumes) on the bestseller list. Most of them are as mundane as wiping down woodwork and hanging curtains. (Oh God help me, I just reminded myself of my real life.)
I seem to be running amuck, topic-wise. Beats painting the bookcase.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-04 04:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-09-04 12:07 pm (UTC)Hey, if you're going off-topic, go big.
BTW, GRR Martin is DAMN good.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-05 12:24 pm (UTC)I haven't read any Leiber or Vance, thanks for the suggestions, I will follow up.
Everyone's talking about George RR Martin :). I have the first of ASoIaF (I'm sure I got that acronym wrong) but haven't started it yet. That is a big series. Epic fantasy readers must need reinforced bookshelves.
Bad links
Date: 2016-12-25 08:49 pm (UTC)Re: Bad links
Date: 2016-12-26 07:11 am (UTC)However, here (http://web.archive.org/web/20100107182430/http://www.khyberfic.net/) is a waybacked version of Khyber's website as well. The links for all the relevant stories appear to still work. :)
RE: Re: Bad links
Date: 2016-12-26 02:59 pm (UTC)