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[identity profile] amyhit.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] xf_book_club
Because the book club has been such a ghost town recently, [livejournal.com profile] wendelah1 and I were considering going on a brief hiatus. Then I mentioned I'd been thinking about rereading "Khyber vs. Season Seven," and Wendelah suggested we read it here, rather than going on hiatus. So for the next month we're going to be kicking back, relishing the end of summer, sipping imaginary iced tea (or real iced tea (it could be love)), and reading KvsS7 at a pace that is decidedly not breakneck.

For those of you who don't know, KvsS7 is a series of ten stories written by Khyber, the majority of which are set in S7. Most of these stories are vignettes, though there are a couple of longer fics, and they all take place in the same slightly alternate universe. Khyber's aim was (among other things) to craft a retelling of S7 by replacing some episodes and adding onto others, so that in theory a reader could watch S7, intersperse it with his KvsS7 instalments, and wind up with a finished product that functioned as a successful alternate outcome for the season (and perhaps for the entire series). Sadly he never finished the KvsS7 project, but even unfinished the KvsS7 stories are complex, intelligent, and often strikingly intense. They feature a Mulder and Scully who are in character yet subtly different from canon, and a story universe that is written with a level of stunning realism TXF rarely attempted to achieve.

We're going to start with the vignettes "Collapsar" and "Weret-Hekau," which are post eps for Millennium and Theef. In approximately five days we'll post again, and continue to post at about that pace until we've covered all ten fics. This does not mean discussion on the previously posted fics must stop, it's just for the sake of organization.

KvsS7 was a weighty concept and a remarkable project, and the resulting fics are sometimes lovely, sometimes horrifying, and often breathtaking. I hope you'll give this fic universe a try, and tell us your thoughts and opinions. This is definitely the sort of fanfic to provoke thoughts and opinions.


1. Collapsar (post Millennium)

2. Weret-Hekau (post Theef)


ETA: I just now realized we actually have covered "Collapsar" here before, about two years ago, as some readers may remember. I even participated in the discussion. Memory fail, amyhit. I'm not going to link you to that discussion, since we're going to be reading the whole thing through this time, and I think it would be nice to get some fresh comments, if we can, without anyone feeling daunted by the prospect of repeating something someone else said back in 2009. However, I'm sure anyone who is interested will be able to find the post in question with a few clicks of a mouse.

Date: 2011-08-22 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] write-out.livejournal.com
This is perfect timing because I've been meaning to read this series for a long time but just never got around to it.

I just read both stories and I need to stew on them for a bit before I comment in more depth, so I'll be back tomorrow, pinky swear! I'm curious to read everyone's reactions to these, "Collapsar" in particular.

Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-22 10:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
Wikipedia had this to say about the definition of a collapsar:

When all stellar energy sources are exhausted, the star will undergo a gravitational collapse.

There is a feeling of things running down here, a kind of frustrated-energy-going-nowhere (fits with the title--and I love that Scully's physics-undergrad mind went that way). To me it feels like there is a certain tiredness between M & S in this story--and to be honest that is a feeling I always had about "Millennium". I know a lot of people liked it and heralded it as a kind of new and exciting move in the relationship, but for me it's always been a sad episode, a reflection on what Frank Black's lost in his search in the truth, and by mirror how much Mulder and Scully have struggled and lost in their own lives, and how much loss they still have to come. One kiss doesn't solve things. One kiss doesn't make anything better.

I don't know, maybe I just don't like New Year's Eve ;).

Collapsar is dark, I think, but it feels honest. I like Scully's interior monologue at the start--I can see her being frustrated and pissed off. I loved this line:

She needed that, him to be either stupid
or coy, otherwise her fragile and sparking wave of anger would just
dash itself up and dissipate.


It does ring true to me in terms of what I see as their relationship--there will always be these problems between them, there will always be pieces that they are trying to stitch together that won't fit or will always keep pulling back. Strangely, I find this kind of story--acknowledging a lot of the true disappointments and difficulties in their relationship--a lot more acceptable as a romantic story than a lot of relationshippy fic.

The ending is abrupt and awkward--I really liked the way it was written. The energy sources are exhausted, the scene collapses.



Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-30 11:49 pm (UTC)
wendelah1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
This was a very intelligent comment that I'm very tardy about responding to.

Thank you for the definition of collapsar. It does fit with the title and Scully's physics background. Khyber is so smart--which helps when you are writing people as intelligent as these characters are. People can't help being average, but at the risk of sounding like an elitist, it really shows when you're writing fic for this fandom.

To me it feels like there is a certain tiredness between M & S in this story--and to be honest that is a feeling I always had about "Millennium". I know a lot of people liked it and heralded it as a kind of new and exciting move in the relationship, but for me it's always been a sad episode, a reflection on what Frank Black's lost in his search in the truth, and by mirror how much Mulder and Scully have struggled and lost in their own lives, and how much loss they still have to come. One kiss doesn't solve things. One kiss doesn't make anything better.

Our difference of opinion about this fic probably stems from how we feel about the episode. I agree, it's a dark episode, though more because of Frank Black than M&S. And it does have a happy ending, for Black and Mulder and Scully and all of creation, if you believe they just staved off the end times for...another time tba. The kiss just seemed like a kiss to me, nothing more and nothing less. I know it must of been a big deal back in the day but it didn't even seem terribly sexy to my eyes. So, yeah, it didn't solve anything, but I never got the impression it was meant to.

So my problem with this story is that Scully's reaction seems all out of proportion to the event itself, even if one factors in a preexisting sexual relationship between them. It just doesn't make any sense to me that she would blow up at him. He was wounded, he's got a sling on, he nearly died for pity's sake and she's all in his face for what's seems under the circumstances a very trivial matter. So I have a hard time believing in it, and I don't think it flows naturally from the episode.

But seeing it through the lens of knowing all of their losses--of Mulder's abduction, of William, and finally their homes and their jobs and everything else that is to follow-- well, yeah, very dark indeed.

It would be great to know where Khyber intended this storyline to go, since it's a au for season seven. He did come back once after a long time away. Maybe he'll be back again someday.

Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-09-04 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
It could be my feelings for Millennium (the show, not the episode) affect my feelings for the episode. It was such a dark, weary kind of show--and I always thought it was a good reflection on what married and family life would have been like for M&S.

Fraught, pretty much.

(I was coming right back here to comment on Weret-Hekau. Ah well, I will just continue on, two posts behind everyone else. :)

Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-09-04 04:38 am (UTC)
wendelah1: Mulder wearing dark glasses and looking cool (Cool)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
No pressure here. Comment as late as you like. We're just havin' some fun in lieu of a hiatus. Amyhit and I both get all of the comments--at least I do when I remember to track her posts. *cough* It's a three-day weekend for me and all I have to do besides read fic is get my laundry caught up and my house cleaned from top to bottom.

Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-09-04 04:43 am (UTC)
wendelah1: (And baby makes three)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
I always thought it was a good reflection on what married and family life would have been like for M&S.

I'm afraid you're probably right.

Speaking of fraught, are you reading Prufrock's new sequel to "The Thirteenth Sign"?

Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-09-04 04:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
I am as of fifteen seconds ago, yes. Haha. I hadn't heard about it.

Wow, it's been a long time since I read anything on ephemeral.

Re: Collapsar

Date: 2011-09-04 05:02 am (UTC)
wendelah1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
Haha. I hadn't heard about it.

Oh. I heard about it from [livejournal.com profile] frey_at_last, who happened to have checked in at Haven the day on it started posting. I wrote about it here and discussed it a bit. I'm wondering if we should discuss it here? Let me know what you think, if you get a chance.

Re: 1. Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-27 02:00 pm (UTC)
wendelah1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
I had a different opinion three years ago but I have to say, I'm feeling bad for Mulder this time around. In the interim, I guess I've spent more time in his head as a writer and I have to say I think she's being pretty hard on him here. I guess this Scully is consistent with the internal canon of KvS7 but I think she's being pretty damn difficult. And maybe that's who she is here, and in canon. I don't see her this way and I can't write her this way, that's for sure.

I just watched Millennium. It's not a cheesy gesture, it's a simple, closed mouth, tentative, sweet little kiss. It's not committing them to anything. It's not even very sexy, at least not the way I read it. It seems affectionate. I remember reading this scene the first time around, and thinking, oh, so they've had sex before, oh, okay. But now I can't give her a pass on that either.

So what is her problem? Is it that Mulder didn't get close enough to dying this time around to justify her wanting to jump his bones? I don't think Khyber likes Agent Scully very much here, not until the very end, when he reveals just how fucked up she really is. She claims she loves Mulder but she's not acting in a very loving way, is she? The guy has a sling on. He's in pain. He's on drugs for that pain and she shows up at his door and starts haranguing him, and for what? And then she kisses him, for real, just to taunt him! Finally, by the end she realizes she crossed a line. You don't treat a friend like that, let alone a wounded partner. If this is really how people saw her while the series was on, I can see why some people were pissed off at her every week.

Re: 1. Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-28 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] write-out.livejournal.com
I think this is exactly why the story doesn't work for me.

Re: 1. Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-28 11:39 pm (UTC)
wendelah1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
Good theories, and for all I know that may be what Khyber was going for, but that's not how I see this story, or how I see their relationship, in this universe or any universe, really. I just watched Millennium two days ago. This story doesn't work with it. He can add whatever the heck he wants, but this story still doesn't work with that episode, doesn't flow out of that episode.

Neither one can just decide to start without the other.

In my experience, someone always makes the first move. YMMV.

Re: 1. Collapsar

Date: 2011-08-31 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com
Hi, me here. I never did understand Scully's anger entirely, but I would say it has to do with frustration. Maybe just simple sexual frustration. Maybe the sadness of knowing that a normal New Year's Eve date is something they'll never have. She just kind of loses it. People do, even Agent Doctor S. But the story itself is a little too complicated for me. I'm not sure it ever can be fully explicated, which is a cowardly way of saying you're both right. This is one way collapsar goes, between these two. Incidentally, so far as canon is concerned, I remember the selling of the "New Year's kiss" and the fever of the fans. I think that bloodless little smooch was Chris Carter's typical way of reducing the ship to a tease rather than a complex and acknowledged reality. It was his curse, that ship, and he went down with it. But people like Khyber--is there anyone like Khyber?--gave it the importance the actors at the very least deserved.

RE: Re: 1. Collapsar

Date: 2016-12-25 08:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bmerb.livejournal.com
Yes yes yes! I was watching back then, and oh yeah they hype was enormous. HUGE. And then CC pulled his little flick of the wrist stunt (like always, there was huge hype over the kiss in the Bermuda Triangle episode too) and left the rabid fans dangling. Again.

And yeah, this:
It was his curse, that ship, and he went down with it.

So so good. I like the darkness of Collapsar. I also like Amyhit's examination of it. I haven't read KvsS7 yet but I'm sure looking forward to it!

Re: 2. Weret-Hekau

Date: 2011-08-23 01:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] write-out.livejournal.com
I spent way too much time at a car dealership tonight (HATE), so I'm a little fried and a lot stressed. My thoughts on "Collapsar" will have to wait until tomorrow, but I think I can handle a brief comment on "Weret Hekau."

Weret-Hekau makes magic feel real.

Yes! This is what I like best about this vignette. The magic in the shop, the magic in Mulder's doorway. It's real and you're right: it does mean something and they all know it.

"Wow. This is powerful stuff, girly-girl." The younger woman's face
clouded over even more, her jaw setting hard. "Sorry. That's bad,
right? I got a flash there. Happens."


A spooky little tie-in to Orison. I heard Pfaster's voice as soon as I read this. Makes me think the reference to Scully's son is more than just a random observation but instead an actual foretelling.

The scene between Mulder and Scully felt so powerful to me. They are both so careful with each other here, it's almost heart-breaking. Your favorite line is mine as well.

I'm pretty new to Khyber's work, so I can't speak to the compound effect, but I am glad to hear that there is one. I like this story much better than Collapsar, but maybe my opinion will change once I read more of the series.

Re: 2. Weret-Hekau

Date: 2011-08-28 05:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] write-out.livejournal.com
Off-putting pretty much nails it for me, as does [livejournal.com profile] wendelah1's comment above. It's not that the story isn't well-written, it's just I can't buy the way Scully acts here.
Edited Date: 2011-08-28 05:25 pm (UTC)

Re: 2. Weret-Hekau

Date: 2011-08-27 06:26 pm (UTC)
wendelah1: ("I think you're wrong about that Scully")
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
I do like how ambiguous that aspect, their already established sexual relationship - which kind of turns out to be the central point of the whole AU - remains for the first several fics. We only learn about it through Mulder and Scully's thoughts, which do not tend towards long coherent expository monologues in Khyber's fics, so the information we get is naturally quite fragmented.

I do think this works as a stand-alone post-ep for Weret-Hakau so I can't complain about the length. I think both the writer and Mulder (standing in for Khyber?) are a wee bit condescending in this story toward Scully, which I admit ticks me off.

I think the ambiguity about their sexual relationship is a tease but it certainly works to keep the reader interested--at least it did with me.

One thing I really dislike is that Scully is referred to as 'Dana' while she's alone. This is one of those 'divided camps' situations, and I'm in the Scully camp, all the way. I think by S7 she thinks of herself as Scully.

I'm in the "Dana" camp. The idea that she would think of herself as "Scully" just because that's what Mulder calls her (except when he doesn't...) is very annoying to me. It's more than annoying, it's horrible! Dana is her name. My son calls me "Mom," and my husband calls me "Honey" and my mom calls me by my sister's name half the time and by her sister's name the rest of the time. Even though I'm careful to introduce myself, my patients all just call me "Nurse." But dammit, I'm still Wendy. When people take her name away, it's just one more thing she's lost and that's too much to bear. That at least Khyber gets right here.

Edit: LJ is behaving badly so half of this comment(!) got posted twice. I deleted the one with the half missing.
Edited Date: 2011-08-27 06:29 pm (UTC)

Re: 2. Weret-Hekau

Date: 2011-08-29 12:05 am (UTC)
wendelah1: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
I always want and expect you to speak your piece. And this doesn't seem off-topic to me at all.

I rarely hear anyone defend a writer's decision to use Scully's given name. More often I hear people complain about it, and even refuse to read a story because of that choice. And I think it's a valid one for a writer to make. I apologize for expressing my opinions in such careless language. I was wrong.

I think people (and many, many fanfics) equate Scully's occasionally expressed desire to have more of a "life" with her having some deep-seated longing to be seen and appreciated as 'Dana', but canon never suggests Scully feels a connection between her first name and her fundamental identity.

I don't even know what to say to that. To me, being identified with one's first name seems pretty fundamental so it doesn't need support from canon. And Dana is the only name she has that is hers and hers alone.

Scully is her dad's surname, which was given to her because her parents were married and her mother gave up her "maiden name" and took his. Women's last names in our patriarchal society are so problematic that to suggest that Scully doesn't lose something by giving up her first name is a pretty charged idea for me. I can't change that. I don't even want to. It goes to my core belief system, even to my values.

This must be a very old style feminist reaction, but perhaps that explains better why I feel the way I do. There are more layers to this, layers that have to do with my out-of-fashion notion of what "being on a first name basis" with someone means, a concept that has less and less meaning all of the time.

Re: 2. Weret-Hekau

Date: 2011-09-04 04:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
it acknowledges how dangerous it is to be her. Proud and brave as she is, she is acknowledging that she could probably use some added protection, even if it comes from a source she doesn't (want to) believe in.

I like that about this fic and I think the characterization of Scully flows, in a way, from Collapsar. There has been a fundamental change in her by this season; some of her barriers are breaking, for better or for worse. She's more open and more fluid, and more prepared to accept things without fully understanding them.

Date: 2011-08-31 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com
Forgive me for ignoring the name issue; I grew up with such an ugly moniker that I fudge it any way I can. But Dana is a nice name and should occasionally be appreciated. As for Weret-Hekau, I think it a perfect post-ep vignette. It's about magic, and it's magical. The language supports the theme. It's rich in that wild poetic streak amyhit referred to, and Mulder's masculine sexual appreciation of off-duty Scully adds to the potency. Our Scully now believes in extreme possibilities, and of course she turns to her partner and soon-to-be(?) lover for understanding and succor.

I'll admit I can't keep the season 7 stuff clear in my head. Jigsaw puzzles aren't my forte.

I'm a life-long reader of fantasy fiction--a field more varied than many people know--and I've often said that the challenge of fantasy is not original plot-making or world-building or whatever fannish term is up for discussion. It's simply that the fantastical as subject requires fantastical language, and that takes a LOT OF TALENT. W talked about the average and those who are obviously far above, like Khyber. The same holds for bff's (big fat fantasies, often in many volumes) on the bestseller list. Most of them are as mundane as wiping down woodwork and hanging curtains. (Oh God help me, I just reminded myself of my real life.)

I seem to be running amuck, topic-wise. Beats painting the bookcase.

Date: 2011-09-04 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
I recently started reading a lot more fantasy novels myself. One thing that strikes me about fantasy as a genre (for me) is that all the dragons, magical lands and quests in the world won't hold interest if the characters don't ring true. If they're not mundane, in the mundane-recognizable sense rather than the mundane-boring sense. I think this is something I like a lot about the X-Files: there are spaceships and fluke monsters and so on, but at the heart of it are characters who are like real people, in whom I can see myself.

Date: 2011-09-04 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com
This is of course true, and very well put. As for fantasy fiction, the kind of books you describe are the (often illegitimate) children of the JRR Tolkien phenomenon. "Weird tales" actually have a long and wide (though semi-hidden) history. You might check Fritz Leiber or Jack Vance, if you're not already familiar. There's a continually confusing and contested overlap with science fiction.

Hey, if you're going off-topic, go big.

BTW, GRR Martin is DAMN good.

Date: 2011-09-05 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] infinitlight.livejournal.com
I think it's okay, there's no-one here to see us going off-topic. I have indeed been reading Tolkien clones. I've loved Lord of the Rings for a long time (not least because it's my father's favorite book) but have mostly avoided fantasy genre until now. I know a little more about sci-fi.

I haven't read any Leiber or Vance, thanks for the suggestions, I will follow up.

Everyone's talking about George RR Martin :). I have the first of ASoIaF (I'm sure I got that acronym wrong) but haven't started it yet. That is a big series. Epic fantasy readers must need reinforced bookshelves.

Bad links

Date: 2016-12-25 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bmerb.livejournal.com
Hey these links aren't working. Boo.

RE: Re: Bad links

Date: 2016-12-26 02:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bmerb.livejournal.com
Thanks! I found his waybacked website and reading them there. I always try to mention the broken links so they can be re linked for more newbie readers, since like you said, I've been around since back in the day.

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