X-Files Book Club

Ah, how often I've felt just that way...

From:

Hmm. I really liked parts of this, and others not so much - I think I wanted it to be smoother, somehow? And yet, I did love most of their interaction? I think? I dunno, I feel conflicted.

From:

Hmm. I really liked parts of this, and others not so much - I think I wanted it to be smoother, somehow?

From what I vaguely remember of reading this story several years ago, I think I felt the same way. It was sort of... all over the place.

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wendelah1

Okay, so you had a problem with...the plot, maybe?

The plot seemed pretty straightforward to me in a cracked-out sort of way, so I'm at a loss.

From:

I honestly don't remember. I'd need to read it again. Maybe it was just the weirdness of the story.

From:

wendelah1

I think I would describe the story as original rather than weird, but okay.

It is MSR which isn't your favorite genre. We'll try to do something with more gen soon, I promise.

From:

I'm not really using "weird" in a bad way. I may not even be remembering the right story (I feel stupid for commenting without rereading it). Is this the one where Mulder has a clone, but it's a female version of him? Or something vaguely like that?

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wendelah1

Nope. That's not it. Not even close. I don't think that story was written by OneMillionandNine. Sorry.

On the bright side, I'm almost done with your remix. I'm just looking for an icon for it.

Whoops. Wrong icon. Reposting...

Edited Date: 2012-05-06 07:55 pm (UTC)

From:

Well, I feel really stupid, now! ;)

I can't wait to read your remix! :)

From:

wendelah1

Ah, don't worry about it. You got the conversation rolling. Now go read the story!

Hee! It's up now!

From:

bmerb.livejournal.com

that one is the other epic length fic by Rivkat and Mustang Sally, Tikkun Olam.

From:

wendelah1

YES. Thank you. We discussed that back in the day...Now that was a wild ride.

From:

bmerb.livejournal.com

WHEEE! Wish I'd been around when that got discussed! Lots of folks don't care for it so much, but I found it utterly bizarrely fascinating. Disturbing but fascinating. Why did I find this reading group so many years after the fact? Grrr!

From:

wendelah1

Can you be more specific? Is it the plot that didn't seem coherent enough? Or something else?

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No, the plot was both too concise and too loose. This is the type of story that because of the style of narration needs a very very firm hand where plot is concerned. In fact, now that I'm thinking more about (with wine in hand), I believe that the plot is actually the problem. Equal attention is paid to both plot and story (if we go by 'plot is what happens, story is how it happens') when imo, 90% of this should have been story with plot providing only the slightest of bones.

But, because both elements have equal weight, neither can come to the forefront as was needed. The plot is not fleshed out enough to be the main reason to read, but it's also too involved to make smut the main reason to read, if that even makes any sense (I did mention I'm drinking wine, right?).

Which isn't to take anything away from 100000009's writing - it's really good, it just needed some tweaks to make her effort flawless. I guess I'm trying to say that I can see the work when I don't want to see the work, ie, more work was needed!

From:

wendelah1

I guess then I just disagree with your assessment. I think the plot and the story are interwoven quite adeptly in "El Quinto Sol," in a way that very few fanfic or pro writers ever manage. Character is driving the plot, and the plot is revealing character.

I think if people just want the smut they can find their own way and skip to the ending but it won't have the same emotional impact as if they'd read the whole thing. The power of the sex scene is fueled at least in part by the conflict that precedes it.

I hope you're enjoying that wine.

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No, I agree that the smut would be...I don't want to say boring ;), but it certainly wouldn't have the same emotional impact without the story.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while reading this is that if felt jumbled and incomplete - maybe it's just a matter of the lack of connect-y bits? Or maybe I just needed those connect-y bits to mark places, ie, this happens and then we are here in this place in the tale because of x - nothing major, just a throwaway sentence or phrase. To me it's as if the story was written, printed out, the paragraphs cut up and mixed together again, but some meaningful sentences were lost when the useless bits were tossed aside.

Does that make more sense?

And I don't want to suggest that the writing is poor - my apologies if that's how my comments have come across! Because, honestly, OMaN's 'poor' efforts are miles ahead.

Edited Date: 2012-05-06 07:05 pm (UTC)

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amyhit.livejournal.com

No, the plot was both too concise and too loose. […] because both elements have equal weight, neither can come to the forefront as was needed. The plot is not fleshed out enough to be the main reason to read, but it's also too involved to make smut the main reason to read, if that even makes any sense

I very much agree with

dryad on this one. And with

littlegreen42 - whether she was thinking of another story when she made her comment or not.

This story really does feel “all over the place” to me. The way Mulder and Scully think and feel about each other has a heavy, messy, ill at ease quality that gives me a slightly sick feeling of disillusionment, yet the narrative swerves radically from that kind of darkness to “souls mating, minds blown” sex. Tao (as I understand it) is very much about peace and natural benevolence and being “at one” (well, as much as Tao can be narrowed down to being "about" anything), but the actual tone of the fic doesn’t seem to “match” with that concept at all. The OC’s are interesting in an exuberantly inventive way, but they lack the steady grounded quality that would make me A) care about them, and B) believe in them as more than a source for amusement and exposition.

And then there’s what dryad has already articulated so well about the strange split in the focus, which leaves the fic feeling unsettled on both levels. It’s a case of too much viscera and not enough skin or bones. Too much potentially interesting material without enough form to lend the material a cohesive and compelling shape.

And I don't want to suggest that the writing is poor

Neither do I. I do think this is one of OMAN’s crackiest and messiest fics, but even so it has quite a bit of good material in it. (And I must admit that I rather enjoy the first scene of the fic. Something about the blatant, almost coarse lust of Scully’s thoughts is quite titillating.)

And of course OMAN has several other fics that I admire much less conditionally. The strength of her writing did once get me to read (and enjoy) several hundred K of a TLG fic that had barely any Mulder and Scully in it at all; not the kind of fic I would usually be interested in.

Edited Date: 2012-05-13 05:32 am (UTC)

From:

The way Mulder and Scully think and feel about each other has a heavy, messy, ill at ease quality that gives me a slightly sick feeling of disillusionment, yet the narrative swerves radically from that kind of darkness to “souls mating, minds blown” sex

Yes, exactly, precisely.

The OC’s are interesting in an exuberantly inventive way, but they lack the steady grounded quality that would make me A) care about them, and B) believe in them as more than a source for amusement and exposition.

Yup, yup. I really disliked the Melissa bit intensely - and that may be because of my own issues, but it didn't ring true to her character. That might sound ridiculous given how little we see of her on the show - or maybe just the failure of my imagination.

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onemillionnine.livejournal.com

I have such mixed feelings about this story. It was by far the most self indulgent of my XF stories and in many ways my weakest, but there are some lines I am still proud of.
~sigh~ to look back on the story with the hindsight I have now...I doubt I would have written it at all but there would have been more focus on the magic, and a sort of compare contrast between Scully and Mulder as a couple/not a couple and the estranged couple( and their son) at the center of the "case".

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I think it was an exceedingly difficult story to write. I personally would never attempt such a thing because I don't have the imagination to tackle that particular style. Besides, I think you touched on some essential Scullyness/Mulderness, too.

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marionravenwood.livejournal.com

Hi!

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I've always found your M&S to be kind of mean and nasty (to each other, mostly, but also in general), and I was wondering a)if that's just me b)if not, is it intentional, and why. I think it's more apparent in this story because it's longer than most of your other work.

(I also find your writing really funny, so please don't hate me.)

From:

wendelah1

Since we're all here to discuss the story, I'll interject a comment, if you don't mind.

I can't speak for the writer, but I think your characterizing M&S's behavior toward one another in this story as "mean and nasty" is overly simplistic. There's a lot of emotion in their interactions; she portrays them as feeling and sometimes displaying anger, frustration, sexual tension, arousal, and mutual admiration and love, to name but a few.

I'll have to look the story over again, but from my memory, it's in their internal monologues where most of the conflict is occurring. Scully is trying her best to talk herself out of wanting to have sex with Mulder. She really really wants to but is convinced it's a bad idea, so she's hating on him in her head to make him less attractive. Mulder has his own issues about Scully, ad infinitum. And then there is the Mysterious Brain Disease complicating his every move.

To me, the fun part of this story is watching how they resolve this dilemma. Without that tension between them, there is little or no conflict and the story line collapses.

Mulder: "You need us to have sex for a couple of hours to power a magic ritual? What a coincidence! I've been wanting to do that for seven years. Sound like a plan to you, Scully?"

Scully: (rolling her eyes) "There is no such thing as magic, Mulder, but I suppose it couldn't hurt and yes, it's about time we did the deed. Let's get it on."

I think her way is much better, much funnier, and really, if you think about it, much more like the Mulder and Scully we see in the episodes. Minus the mind-blowing sex part of course. Alas.

From:

marionravenwood.livejournal.com

I guess I'm just not seeing the love?

From:

wendelah1

But surely you do by the end? The ending is nothing less than transcendent.

The conflict between Mulder and Scully provides all of the comedy and the bulk of the plot, just as in Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing" with Benedict and Beatrice. Just as in Shakespeare's play, OMaN's Mulder and Scully come together by the end, and their true love for one another is revealed to all in the story's climax, in M&S's case, quite literally.

Mulder and Scully spar verbally on the show and we have fun watching the sparks fly. There are some occasional moments of tenderness but they're usually kind of sappy and badly written: "you are my touchstone," "and you are mine." Yawn. That doesn't even sound like them.

I think OMaN's Mulder and Scully are fun and entertaining, and pretty much resemble the ones I have running around in my head.

It may be that you are reading fanfic in search of that elusive something and this story isn't it, which is fine.

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onemillionnine.livejournal.com

I think there are several factors here, one being that I am somewhat acerbic by nature, another that many of the nastier bits are internal and thus never voiced aloud, also the show depicts the characters as having a certain amount of friction in their relationship, and for me the point of the show by then was to a large degree about two people whose worlds had shrunk to revolve around eachother in ways both good and bad.

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amyhit.livejournal.com

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I've always found your M&S to be kind of mean and nasty (to each other, mostly, but also in general), and I was wondering a)if that's just me b)if not, is it intentional, and why.

I know what you mean,

marionravenwood, and while what

wendelah1 says is true – that most of their conflict is internal and unspoken – for me that just makes it harder to come to grips with. It is quite common for Scully and Mulder to be frustrated with each other in fics, but in EQS and in some of OMAN’s other fics, the thing that’s between them often feels troubled by much more than just frustration and trauma-related angst. There’s resentment, and sometimes a sense of disillusionment between them. There seems to be a lot of ugly feelings tangled up with the positive ones. And that’s fine, that’s one very valid way of depicting the M/S relationship, but I do sometimes find it hard to connect with. I want to draw away from the feelings harbored by this Mulder and Scully, not draw closer.

If this were a S6 fic I’d probably have a much easier time - in fact I think I might enjoy it quite a bit. But because it’s a S7 fic a part of me just shuts right off. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: my S7 Mulder and Scully are basically Parabiosis Mulder and Scully. If you compare those characters to the characters in EQS it becomes pretty easy to see why I find their relationship in EQS unpleasantly murky.

From:

marionravenwood.livejournal.com

Thank you, you expressed this much better than I did.

From:

wendelah1

This is one of the most memorable stories I've ever read in this fandom. I think you underestimate the power of your own writing. I for one am very glad you did write it and that I got the chance to read it, and the rest of your XF fic as well.

More focus on the magic? I think there is a lot of focus on it as it is. You do compare and contrast the two couples: one of them is already broken up at the start of the action, and Mulder and Scully aren't a couple in any traditional sense of the word. They're much more than that to one another. But like Frigga and Viggo, M&S are "opposite ends of the same stick." I think that gets conveyed to the reader.

You wrote this, what? Nine years ago? Of course you're a better writer now and you'd do things differently. This is still a fine story.

From: (Anonymous)

For me, the story failed because 1) there wasn't enough explanation of what was going on -- I'm not asking for encyclopedic exposition, but I don't like to have to Google while reading a story just because I'm not up on my Nordic mythology/feminist studies. And 2) the coincidence of these women being tied to both Mulder and Melissa was at least one coincidence too many. I found it confusing keeping them all sorted out until in the end, I realized it didn't really matter. But I enjoyed reading it nonetheless, as it was very different from what I usually come across.

From:

wendelah1

Thank you for letting us know you read and enjoyed it.

the coincidence of these women being tied to both Mulder and Melissa was at least one coincidence too many.

Or as Mulder would say, "If coincidences are coincidences, why do they feel so contrived?"

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I've always adored this story. Why? Three-letter word, ending with an x. No one has handled the sexual act in this fandom with such a mixture of intensity and cool, factual description. It is pure, icy-hot lust. Mustang Sally and her famous partner did lust well, but always with a sort of verbal wink, which prevented reader annihilation. Nothing protects us here.

It's a very ambitious tale with lots of plotty support, but I think I can get some posters' problems with it. The "set-up" of the case, all in service to Mulder and Scully finally overcoming their relational inhibitions, is as fancy and detailed as one could wish. Norse mythology, hippy covens, women reappearing from Mulder's past who also knew Scully's sister. Very coincidental, of course, but hey, The X-Files. I had no problem following it, but there was a problem *caring* about it. None of these women became individuals, and the bizarre situation of child-kidnapping by a faithless lover turned serial killer was very briskly treated. It's horror novel stuff reduced to graphic novel images. A woman who presumably loved her mate and still considers him the "end of the same stick" is now desperate to retrieve the son he took and to prevent magical multiple murder for which he is responsible. Is she upset by this? We must assume so. It's a situation that deserves a lot more attention, possibly a television series.

But I think OneMillionandNine--hi, I'm Cathryn Fuller, we've spoken--has here recognized this. She certainly should not apologize. There is so much to enjoy in this story, so much stored sexual energy to exploit in dialogue and such a wealth of original images and environments. No one could ever confuse an OMAN story with one by anyone else, which is the first requirement of good fiction.

The only objection I would make is purely personal. I'm not crazy about a Mulder who gets off by rubbing his beloved's leg. I don't mind him being neurotic, but I hate him being pitiably childish, a specimen to be analyzed and almost mocked by wise women. I like a tougher Mulder and a somewhat less cynical Scully. But minor alterations would do! And as anyone here knows, I'm a champion of free-form characterization, and a believer that there are far more many Mulders and Scullys in our fannish dreamworld than were dreamed of by Chris Carter.

BTW, does anyone remember that Kel and a co-writer did something involving Norse myth personae years ago? Backtracking was the title.

From:

amyhit.livejournal.com

No one has handled the sexual act in this fandom with such a mixture of intensity and cool, factual description. […] Nothing protects us here.

I might not describe the way OMAN writes sex quite this way, but I do agree that nothing about it protects the reader. Because of this, I’ve never found OMAN’s sex scenes consistently arousing, but I do find them very interesting as plot/characterization pieces (something that certainly can not be said about most fic smut).

The way she writes sex isn’t coarse, really, but it is very physical – a series of gut reactions and desires. When the characters have sex in her fics I feel like I’m watching them mate. It’s mammalian – an influx of urges, impulses, and satiation responses. It’s slightly uncomfortable for me to view sex that way, because I always tend towards a very thinky and even symbolic brand of eroticism. So I usually find myself staring at my screen like a wide-eyed youth who’s just discovered something very explicit indeed.

Oddly, I’ve always kind of wanted to commend OMAN on this aspect of her writing. It’s very distinctive, very unique, and it makes a strong impression.

Norse mythology, hippy covens, women reappearing from Mulder's past who also knew Scully's sister.

I’ve been rather hard on EQS in my comments up-thread, and I feel that I should acknowledge that these elements are all pretty cool. It’s a very spunky, spirited story. There’s a lot of energy behind it, and a lot of fun (and smart) elements, which I do enjoy about this fic. They just don’t quite hit the mark for me. I end up considering the writing and thinking, “That last paragraph was really cool – I wonder what the next one will be like” rather than slipping into the actual experience of the fic.

Yet this fic strikes me as essentially a very “experiential” fic. Everything has a “vibe”. By that I mean it’s full of strange, intense sensory experiences. The characters go from one new environment to the next with each one being quite distinctive and unusual (at least compared to what they’re used to). The ideas and the people involved are also described in a way that makes them feel like part of an almost overwhelming experience. Mulder and Scully are urged onwards through a heady procession of impressions and concepts and peculiar details. I think I’m babbling at this point. It’s just hard to explain. It’s both something I like about the fic and something I don’t. I basically go back and forth by the page.

It's horror novel stuff reduced to graphic novel images.

Wow. That a very interesting and - IMO - accurate description.

Edited Date: 2012-05-13 05:35 am (UTC)

From:

I think your second-paragraph description of the sex and your later summary of the "vibes" of the story are excellent, and both of them expand what I said, or thought I said, or intended to say.:-) I am also somewhat in sympathy with those who find edgy, unpleasant aspects of the M/S relationship confusing and off-putting. For me it's the strange mixture of desire and contempt that simmers inside Scully, the sense of hopelessness that she will ever make fruitful contact with a man of so many tics and vulnerabilities. She doesn't want to be saddled with an immature and needy manchild, and she seems to fear that. I'm not sure how much of this attitude is obvious in EQS, but it does come through in OMAN's work as a whole. And I don't like it, which is not to say it's not an arresting and defensible character concept.

Yet it seems as though Scully actually did need a good, hard fuck to resolve all. Of course, there were chakras involved. Tantric coitus triumphs. (BTW, there's a fic called Tantric; I advise against it.)

I'm beginning to sound sarcastic. Forgive me. I really, really like El Quinto Sol.

There's a short piece by OMAN--some sort of mythological title and I should look it up--on the subject of Scully requesting Mulder's seman. The vibe there is very bitter.

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BTW, does anyone remember that Kel and a co-writer did something involving Norse myth personae years ago? Backtracking was the title.

Is that Bone of Contention, written with Michelle Kiefer?

there was a problem *caring* about it.

Oo, nail on the head.

It's horror novel stuff reduced to graphic novel images.

This is a great way of putting it. And I like graphic novels, and yet I still wanted more connect-y bits.

I do like the raw quality and the some of the antagonism between our Heroes. For me it becomes too much antagonism at times, to the point where I was grimacing as much as I was smiling (getting off on Scully's leg? Mm, no.),

Edited Date: 2012-05-13 11:36 am (UTC)

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