ext_20969: (Default)
[identity profile] amyhit.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] xf_book_club
Recently, while reading Human Credentials for the first time, I had such a strong desire to discuss it that I knew immediately I was going to post it here at some point. Then, while going through our recs page, I was pleased to find it had already been recced quite some time ago by [livejournal.com profile] tiger_bay.

Human Credentials picks up after FTF, in an AU season 6, when a mysterious lead prompts Mulder, Scully, and Diana to set out on an adventure that will challenge their humanity and take them to the ends of the earth, possibly in more ways than one. The fact that this fic is over 400K tends to suggest it's a story with a fair amount going on. That's an understatement. There's not a lot that isn't going on in Human Credentials. It incorporates the mytharc in a way that makes a powerful and surprising amount of sense, and it makes excellent use of nearly every major secondary character from the show, as well as bringing in at least one intriguing original character. On top of that, it has the kind of dark, controversial Mulder and Scully characterizations that are sure to spark discussion. And there's a fair amount of hot sex too.


Human Credentials


A Few Specifications and Caveats:

Regarding Diana Fowley: Her role is mainly in the first third of the fic, so if you aren't a fan of her character and you just can't see yourself making it through 400K of her presence, don't write this fic off! Human Credentials does give Diana her due, but it's still very much Mulder and Scully's show.

Regarding the sequel: There is one, and it's called Lendemains. It's an unfinished WIP, and it was written about a decade after Human Credentials. You may discuss it in the comments if you want to, but the 'official' rec is Human Credentials only. It's just easier that way.

Regarding our schedule: Because this fic is so long, we might spend more time on it than usual. If discussion is still going on after seven or eight days, or if people start posting saying they fully intend to comment but they need a little more time, then [livejournal.com profile] wendelah1 and I will hold off on posting a new fic for a few more days.

Regarding the content warnings: Heed them. Characters do some very troubling things in this fic. Things that will make excellent points for discussion, I think, but I don't want anyone getting blindsided.

Page 1 of 4 << [1] [2] [3] [4] >>

Date: 2011-06-08 09:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coldthermistor.livejournal.com
Whoa. It's just...it's a really wild ride. I don't even know where to begin, but I'm quite amazed at how they picked up on so many of the possibilities, and fleshed them out - even before Biogenesis, they said?

Characterisation...hmm. It's very, very raw, IMO. A great deal of emotional intensity, but I guess that's the whole point, right?

Re: fifty pages until lift-off.

Date: 2011-06-11 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coldthermistor.livejournal.com
Question. I might have missed this (okay, wrong, I definitely did): what is Iokulus? :S

Re: fifty pages until lift-off.

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-15 06:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: fifty pages until lift-off.

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 07:49 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: fifty pages until lift-off.

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-17 08:11 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: fifty pages until lift-off.

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 05:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: a really troubling sex scene.

Date: 2011-06-11 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coldthermistor.livejournal.com
I think that was the part that I had a bit of trouble accepting: both the rationale, and the aftermath. For the rationale, you either have to accept that the psychological pressures totally broke Mulder to the point he just went into semi-mindless rage (and this just happened to be it), or...well, that something just doesn't make sense. I guess the sticking point is whether you can or cannot buy the idea that Mulder could snap and go all sadistic, I suppose :/ (I'm new, and still stuck at the end of Season Five, so I daren't comment on this.)

I do think the ramifications needed a bit more exploration for both of them. I guess I can sort of buy the 'you know, it's sort of blurry' idea to explain Scully's end (mind shutting out 'alien' memories, so as to speak) and all, but I'm not certain about Mulder. I mean, it's...rape. Shouldn't there be a little more to it?

Re: a really troubling sex scene.

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-15 10:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: a really troubling sex scene.

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-16 12:15 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-06-10 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com
reading, reading, reading...

Re: Okay, now the positive stuff, mostly.

Date: 2011-06-15 11:10 pm (UTC)
wendelah1: (Diana Fowley)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
1. It does have a fantastic plot, one of the best ever conceived in this fandom. That HC was her first posted fic is pretty amazing. She does far more with the myth-arc than 1013 ever managed. I mean, does it get creepier than the thought that Darwinism has been engineered to lead us to enslavement and slaughter? That every human alive is an instrument of their own defeat? No, it doesn't. I don't know why TPTB didn't stick to that concept, why they thought they had to come up with anything else. The show should have ended with Requiem, followed by a movie in which Scully rescues Mulder and saves the world. Okay, Scully rescues Mulder and together they save the world.

2. I like her use of secondary characters, too. I like her Diana much better than I like her Scully, actually. Her Diana seems pretty grounded in canon, and I guess canon matters in a story like this for me. Her sympathetic portrayal of an unfairly reviled character is probably my favorite part of HC, apart from the brilliant plot. This shipper argument that Diana was a plot device simply doesn't make sense to me. Come on. Everything that happens is a plot device! So she was introduced to make trouble between Mulder and Scully! It worked, it made for some incredible television, and it gave us some fascinating Mulder back-story! We are never going to agree on this point, so I'll move on.

3. I don't find the sex in this fic all that hot, which considering my propensity for doomed ships is surprising. But as we've established, that's a matter of taste. I think it's the language, more than the setting or character motivation, that's throwing me out of the scenes. Again, what one likes in a sex scene, more than anything else, is personal.

Date: 2011-06-15 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com
First of all thank you for selecting my story for the book club, I'm very flattered.

Before I address specific issues pertaining to this fic, I would like to put this story back in its context:

I started writing HC around September/October 1998. The first chapter was published on December 15th 1998 and the last in April 2000.

I never meant for it to be so long. It was initialy supposed to be a short story based on the rather crude: "what would it take for M&S to have sex in the FBI parking garage?". Nope, there were no grand scheme planned.(I think this goes a long way to explain why Amyhit felt such a change of tone after the first fifty pages. More on this later.)

It was my first story. My only previous attempt at fanfic had been to add Skinner's inner monologue on a transcript scene from the "Red & The Black". And although I will always be proud of HC, there are many things that I would change now, if I ever revised the story.

Now about the story itself.

I found it very interesting to hear Amyhit say how she felt the fic changed dramatically around page fifty. I guess that's how long it took me to find my voice, and that at the beginning I didn't dare step too far away from canon. I am indeed a rabid Iolokus fan but I am also very aware that it is not given to everyone to take this particular brand of crazy and make it work.

I guess the beginning of the story revolved on "what if Scully's traumas had really taken their toll? What if Mulder, instead of being the crazy one, was the one getting better, what would their dynamic be like?" But I was an unexperienced writer back then, and I agree with Amy when she says: instead of sharp, flinty, enticingly screwed up characters, Mulder and Scully come off as...well, he's an asshole and she's just sort of pitiful. Though I'm still quite fond of the ending of that "Scully high as a kite" scene.

Anyway, the fic was supposed to end after the parking garage scene. But somehow, it didn't and became a completely different creature altogther. And I'm very proud of the fact that the show, came up with the concept of aliens being responsible for human evolution AFTER Cat - my then awesome beta scientist - and I, had used the idea for cornerstone of HC.

I also agree that the Scully/Diana interactions were at times too bitchy and heavy handed. This was just plain cheap and sloppy wirting.

Now about *that* sex scene in Tunisia. (copying and pasting some of the stuff I've discussed with Amy in a pm.)

Do I think it's rape? No I don't think it is, because:

A) they were in the middle of having sex.
B) Scully, or whatever was controlling Scully at the time did try to escape when she felt exposed, but the minute she felt Mulder still hard above her she stopped fighting and Her hips pushed up slightly against his . She stopped fighting then, yes she didn't participate but that's only because there was no longer any need to. The alien inside her had what it wanted: coitus.

I have to admit I debated many times about whether or not I should "sanitize" this scene and tone done the violence of it.

.../...

Date: 2011-06-15 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com
.../...
I didn't give any hints that Mulder's anger could come from anywhere but himself. I never liked to give my readers definite answers. So you can either believe that this Mulder is indeed capable of losing it like this and fuck her partner until she bleeds - which makes him a rather mentally unstable character indeed, and one hell of a callous, selfish bastard, especially considering how quickly he accepts Scully's forgiveness later on. OR you can pay attention and consider what you know about this Mulder in this world. A man who's no longer the dark brooding mess he once was. A man who until now was in a healthy, stable relationship and who was on the mend. There is no logical reason for him to snap like this. He got completely turned off by Scully's eyes.(and that's because she felt him go soft, that she jumped off him btw) IIRC it says something about it being like a cold shower. Any sane man would have been shocked, surprised, bewildered, but angry? Why? His anger in this context makes little sense, unless he's A)a dangerous nutcase. B)*something* else is making him snap. Remember, in this tale, everybody has been engineered to serve. The oilien may not have been able to mindfuck him like they did Scully, but they may still have been able to tweak things just a little. Especially if their 'vessel' was in close proximity to the person they wished to control, which was indeed the case.

It can go either way really.

I agree that I should have addressed the issue further later on. But by then, I was having so much fun with the character of Faye, that it kind of got relegated on the back shelf. I guess that if I had continued Lendemains I would have explored the ramifications of this scene at some point.

Voila. :)
Edited Date: 2011-06-15 04:54 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 08:24 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 08:28 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-06-15 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Oops, Fish posted. I am deliberately not reading her.

I respect the hell out of Human Credentials. The writer announced her infatuation with a new and argument-inspiring example of fanfic--I told Wendelah that Iolokus "blew the doors off" expectations--and proceeded to display the sincerest form of admiration by trying to write in its nontraditional "tradition." This made her vulnerable to all sorts of accusations, including those of character-assassination and blatant imitation. Screw that. I don't intend to pile on.

For one thing, amyhit is right in pointing out that this is a nifty story-line. Few have dealt so well with the mytharc artifacts that CC left in such disarray. The lake of black oil is a wonderful passive villain. Character assassination? Got it right here. Complete rationale thrown in for free.

Mulder is drawn a bit outside the guidelines, though, predating modern feminism as I do, I'll leave the rape issue to others. Diana is sympathetic, which makes for a nice change, and the hard time that Scully gives her in claiming her lover is our first hard hint that the iron, as they used to say, has entered into her soul. (Where do I get these expressions? Haven't a clue.) Walter was great: the camel, not the AD, though he was okay too. Ali was a most fascinating sacrificial scientist. Krycek--ah, Krycek. Turning noble, and where did it get him? A cold, cold hell.

My primary problem with HC is in the area of tone, which is an extraordinarily hard thing to talk about. The combination of dire circumstance, self-hating behavior, and wisecrack is one that Iolokus pioneered, but it's really, really hard to do. Trying as I was to empathize with Scully's quest for normal happytimes, I was repeatedly thrown off by lines like "she now had the vital statistics to enter a Miss Dachau 2000 competition. His pity was not a crown she was willing to wear" or "She liked that. A lot. Although it would probably take the nation's supplies of Pentholotal (sic) to get her to admit it." Then there's "I needed that asshole to kick my ass." Exaggerated metaphors and the like can sometimes capture that agonizing link between pain and hilarity. But it's a fine, fine line, and failed hilarity can cause pain. And can leave the reader thinking that it's not a good idea to
flaunt what you don't got.

The sex? Pretty good, though I've found that reading carefully kinds of kills it for me. But the one thing that I can't forgive is Mulder and Scully fucking against the wall of the parking garage. Never! Dumb, distasteful, morally and physically questionable, totally nonerotic. Walter should have fired their asses! Yes, the camel too!

Guess I have piled on a bit. But I do consider Human Credentials a brave, exciting, and historically interesting piece of fiction.

Date: 2011-06-15 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Um, that post up there? It was I, Estella. Guess I got in the side door.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-15 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-16 12:07 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-16 11:09 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 08:35 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

Date: 2011-06-17 06:58 am (UTC)
wendelah1: (FBI Love Triangle Shocker)
From: [personal profile] wendelah1
I'm just saying that the entire HC universe seems to, well, ogle her a fair amount. And hey, I ogle Scully too. She's hot, no doubt about it. But not only is her sexuality put fairly front and center in HC, she is also constantly placed in situations where her own body, and even her own feelings, are out of her control and in someone elses.

The show does that a fair amount too, but the show doesn't make it sexual. There are times when the show actually neglected to recognize Scully's sexuality, but for the most part it was a good thing, because by desexualizing Scully they desexualized the nature of her victimization. For the most part, it wasn't about that. It was about humans being treated as objects, much more than it was about Scully the woman being treated as an object.


These are all good points, and I don't disagree with you in regards to HC, but I think many of the worst things that were done to Scully in canon were assaults to her reproductive system, or were a result of those assaults. Her infertility, the discovery that she'd had a child, even multiple children created from stolen ova, everything related to William from beginning to end. I can't see how she could be more objectified sexually. It's worse in a way than if they'd just put her in a push-up bra, a low-cut blouse and short skirts. It's cruelty, for one thing, both to the viewer and to the character.

The "male gaze" in HC at least feels more honest.

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 08:42 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-18 12:27 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [personal profile] wendelah1 - Date: 2011-06-18 01:28 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 08:39 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [identity profile] estella-c.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 05:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: I forgot to mention

From: [identity profile] badforthefish.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-06-17 05:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-06-18 03:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lightlack.livejournal.com
Breezing in and out with only two things to say:

Fifty-four comments! GotDAMN, the last time I was here we were still at thirteen!

And this: Krycek is an invertebrate scum-sucker whose moral dipstick is about two drops short of bone dry. <--- is the most amazing thing I've read all week long. Possibly counting last week, too.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] bmerb.livejournal.com - Date: 2016-12-22 02:56 pm (UTC) - Expand

Open full-grown galleries

Date: 2016-08-14 07:18 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Pornographic pictures blog
http://latin.erolove.in/?pictures-annika
erotic poetry erotic experience erotic jobs pinoy erotic movies

Experimental Protrude

Date: 2016-10-31 02:57 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
New available porn site
http://asian.replyme.pw/?iyanna
erotic resorts adult erotica video pirno gratis erotic torrents free erotic stories

Grown up purlieus

Date: 2016-10-31 08:31 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hard dick shemales
http://futanari.blogporn.in/?post-miriam
freeshemaleporn.com shemalesex shemalevideos.com hard core labyboy pics

My new website

Date: 2016-10-31 09:10 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Fresh gay images
http://gayfiles.xblog.in/?profile_vance
gay doctors russian gay gay sailors gay boston gay adoption uk

My supplementary website

Date: 2016-10-31 04:13 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Free-born shemale photos
http://asianshemales.replyme.pw/?page-katlyn
shmel movies seamale sex hardcore shemail shemaile sex videos

Grown up site

Date: 2016-10-31 10:22 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Rid ladyboys
http://asianshemales.replyme.pw/?private-teresa
transexual free shmale sex transsexual shemails.com hardcore

New Protrude

Date: 2016-11-01 06:18 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Ribald pictures blog
http://mature.xblog.in/?profile_kiara
color hardcore climax 1980s danish 121 sex asian mom enter in the wrong bus underwater fetish amputee girl video

Free galleries

Date: 2016-11-03 02:06 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Shemale photos
http://dickgirl.replyme.pw/?personal-faith
shemaie videos best shemal sex shemails.com freeshemale.cum tranni sexi

Open full-grown galleries

Date: 2016-11-03 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
New bare pictures
http://bikini.blognet.pw/?darby
erotic lingerie adult video hot movies erotic book excerpts erotic story books

New Job

Date: 2016-11-05 12:05 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Without charge shemale photos
http://shemales.xblog.in/?blog-lydia
younger tranys shemel sex movis shemeal videos shemels pic ladyboy

Delivered grown-up galleries

Date: 2016-11-05 06:19 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Shemale dick
http://shemale.replyme.pw/?post-anna
semales.com shemals free videos free shemal movies free video oorn younger tranys

Pictures from social networks

Date: 2016-11-05 01:01 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Long dick shemales
http://shemales.blogporn.in/?private.kennedi
shemal tranni sexi free transexual fuck videos younger tranys shemaleporn

Communal pictures

Date: 2016-11-06 12:29 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Latin ladyboys
http://shemale.replyme.pw/?profile.mina
shamale younger tranys shemans sex transexual shemails

Free matured galleries

Date: 2016-11-06 08:14 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Latin shemales
http://shemales.xblog.in/?page-kiana
shemal pict free pron vidos.com video shemal.com shemans sex sex shemen

Unencumbered galleries

Date: 2016-11-12 01:29 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Enchanting self shots
http://boobs.xblog.in/?blog-miya
teen panty galleries animal sexo dogging milf blog watch chak de india online
Page 1 of 4 << [1] [2] [3] [4] >>

Profile

xf_book_club: (Default)
X-Files Book Club

July 2017

S M T W T F S
      1
2345678
9101112131415
1617181920 2122
23242526272829
3031     

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jul. 8th, 2025 01:39 am
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios